Close contact w/ Adult, almost certainly undiagnosed Aspie..

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Hey all. I regged here a while ago just to lurk but I figured I'd finally post about the reason I lurk here, mostly out of curiosity.

Long story short, here we go. I work in close quarters with an adult that I am about 99% convinced is an undiagnosed aspie. And I'll try to keep it simple and short here, but I'll say it's not really much of a 'guess.' We know some people that are actually experts in the field, and it's a fairly unanimous thing: he'd almost SURELY get the diagnosis.

Now, it's interesting. Upon first meeting this guy, I had very little experience with people 'on the spectrum' as it were, and I hated him. Flat out hated. He came off as obscenely egotistical and callous... as I'm sure makes sense.

However, after a little while of this flat out malice, the signs began pointing to this AS direction and experts we know agreed very thoroughly... as well as, many of us started doing reading and it makes a ridiculous amount of sense that he would qualify for the diagnosis. But of course, as far as we can tell (we've tried to gently probe in that direction but we've never really made any headway yet into a direct discussion) he has no idea. Which made the 'hatred' morph into efforts to really try to understand and work with him.

So we have a full grown adult male. That, whether we call it 'disorder' or 'difference,' would qualify as an aspie. I would bet a lot of money on this with no remorse and no worry. And he's oblivious.

So, I would ask the aspies, or the NTs that have experience with aspies... wtf is the course of action here?

I am in a tough situation. I won't elaborate more right yet, but we're in a position where if he gets particularly upset and angry (which he seems prone to) he might bail on us, which puts us out a lot (and puts him out as well.. and who knows, if we anger him, he might be less likely to open-mindedly accept the possibility). But I feel like it is absolutely necessary that we have this discussion, for ethical reasons.

Do we tell him what we've noticed? I think that's an obvious yes. But what about timing? Wording? How do we discuss this with him?

So, if we have any adult aspies that were diagnosed later in life, or NTs with that sort of experience... what are your thoughts?

Obviously everybody is an individual so these answers won't be the gospel, but I figure that there's certain common 'trends' among aspies that, if we understand them well, might make this a much easier process. And if this all involves waiting a bit, does anybody have experience with the undiagnosed, and how best to help make sure interactions with them are accommodating to both of our ways of viewing the world? I keep feeling like a lot of the time when I'm very explicit with details, etc. I come off as very condescending and an as*hole. And he seems to react thusly, at least sometimes. In a 'diagnosed' aspie, or somebody that was aware of these seeming differences, this would probably be mildly uncomfortable, but in the current situation it just causes a lot of tension and awkwardness.

I'm kinda rambling here, but I think I'll cut the post off. Anybody, NT, aspie, diagnosed, self diagnosed, undiagnosed, formerly, anything, have any pointers or ideas? I'd love to hear people's thoughts whether it be NT, aspie, or anything in between. Thanks folks.

What ethical reasons?

I am not sure what the actual problem is supposed to be.

If he were me...
I wouldnt want to feel Im being pushed down in the social order.
It would be unpleasant to be around people who diagnosed me.
I call it my 'self appointed life-style coach alert'.
As much as you try to then avoid being patronising its too easy to boost your ego by being patronising.

Joke suggestion 1: Hire an actor to join your group. He pretends to be a psychologist and he tells him.
Joke suggestion 2: All go out to the movies and just happen to see "Adam".

Real suggestion: Consider who knows him but would not threaten him socially to suggest this?

Well, honestly, I've seen him have some very frustrating interactions with people, including his family. His brother's family has a derogatory nickname for him that insinuates that he's crazy, and he has had on multiple occasions to explain very seriously to his parents that he, despite (his words, paraphrased) 'sometimes I say things that make you think I don't give a s**t.... if I really didn't care, I wouldn't even talk to you' Hearing these conversations with his parents was actually sort of heart-wrenching for me, and I'm generally kind of an unemotional bastard. So, I don't know if there's a good answer as far as who to talk to that would be easier to have this sort of talk to him with. His family clearly doesn't understand and I think, as many people do, view him as narcissistic and callous. But, given my limited understanding of AS and my extensive experience with him, I KNOW that's not really the case. And that's not cool, at all.

And I don't know if 'problem' is the right word. But he very obviously understands to a certain extent that he's different and wonders why he keeps pissing people off, making people very upset, etc. And I think that, even if he doesn't have the 'diagnosis' (and clearly it's not like all aspies are the same) just having some sort of discussion about this and putting the thought into his head would sincerely help his life. Basically, I think he understands and accepts that he's 'different' but the way things are going currently, he often alienates everybody around him... and I know that he doesn't want to. Because even if he doesn't really get the diagnosis, or it's not really a 'disorder' or whatever you want to call it, I think some awareness of some of his traits and how they're similar to AS would help him interact with people and help people (including his family) interact with him.

The ethical reasons, and I definitely want to stress this too much to slam it home... is that he honestly seems lost. He's not 'old' but he's not particularly far from middle aged, and he makes references to how he's "different" but I just feel like, if our assumptions are correct, if he makes efforts to understand how and WHY he is 'different,' and how and why other people are 'different' from him, he could make huge strides in making social interactions work the way he wants. At this point, i've seen a bunch of times where he has pissed people off, made women cry, etc... and while he seems detached about it, he is clearly upset when this happens, and very curious about why it happened.. and specifically, what exactly made it happen.

While it is admittedly frustrating for me sometimes when we interact, it is also very frustrating to see him in these situations; a good natured, well-meaning person approaches another, and within ten minutes, just because they're on very different wavelengths, they are both very upset with one another... that's never good.

Again, I'm rambling here, but I hope the point I'm making is at least vaguely clear here. I just think that, assuming the diagnosis is accurate, letting him know this information would be the right thing to do. I don't care if he agrees or disagrees, views Asperger's as a disorder or a difference, or thinks I'm a dick for saying it, I just think the right thing to do is to try to tell him what we've thought. I just don't know the best way how.

As an individual that's suffered from depression multiple times and battled ADHD, I know that personally, regardless of my individual opinions on 'disorder vs difference' and whatnot, I have ALWAYS been very relieved when I started to realize that these descriptions fit me because it helped me become more self aware and understand my behavior and thought processes much better, so I feel like there is an ethical obligation to at least mention it.

Ramble ramble /ramble.

This is what I worry about. It seems nearly impossible to explain to him these things without really angering him and coming off as extremely patronising.

But, other side of the coin: it's nearly impossible to interact with him in the current state without coming off as extremely patronising as well. When he does something that is very socially unacceptable and bound to piss people off, I can try to explain to him what he's doing and why it's offensive, etc... but this is two adults, particularly, myself being younger and him being older, interacting. And when I say something like that, he (reasonably) gets angry and defensive, but I don't know how to avoid that. And for those that would say 'just let him do it...' I will say that our social interactions are an important aspect of our field, and severely alienating the wrong person can carry very grave consequences, no matter how innocent the cause-interaction was. Hiring an actor is a good idea.. .maybe we can leave some books laying around for him to check out? ;P

Well there is always the indirect approach.

Do you have an excuse to get him a gift? For example, employee appreciation day, or his birthday, etc? You could get him a book with an AS character in it. For example, 'The speed of dark', or 'Born on a blue day'. Just say that your friend really liked the book and recommended it as a good read. Your aren't directly coming out and saying 'hey, you have AS', you are just giving him a book which mentions it, and he may recognize himself.

Thanks for the response... the thought has crossed my mind, but it seems kinda surreptitious and evil. Plus, it's obviously not guaranteed. However, he's a very bright individual and I think would be pretty likely to consider the self-diagnosis pretty easily in the right context.... I dunno. That might definitely be a way to approach it. If so, though I don't know if I have the stomatch to be that pseudo-deceptive, are there any movies that would serve this purpose? He reads a lot but he's much more of a movie buff than a reading buff. Thanks for the reply!

Just to satisfy my own curiosity, can you give an example or 2 of things he has done to anger other people or things that were socially unacceptable? Is it the things he says? Also curious, what kind of work are you guys in?

Well there is currently a movie out called Adam:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1185836/

I haven't seen it yet. For some reason they only display it in 'select' theaters, the closest one being an hours drive from my house.

I dont know much about it. As you have said, everybody is different, so your co-worker may not match the actor directly. But it may be enough to get him a close idea of what the condition is about.

Ah. Certainly I have found the diagnosis, unofficial as mine is, to be a helpful keyword for figuring out what's gone so pear-shaped in my social interactions. It's useful.

I would probably find hinting at it with books and movies obtuse or irritating. I suggest you either say something along the lines of, "Ever think you might be a little autistic?" or leave it alone. Maybe this will offend him and maybe it will not. A remark along those lines did not annoy me, it merely made me curious. And proved, as I have said, useful.

Thanks.. this is the kind of thing I was hoping for. I really don't know how he would take a line like that.. which is why I'm reaching out for other opinions. I'm just clueless. But I do know with my ADHD and past depression, those sorts of lines even if they pissed me off in the short term, helped in the long term. Thanks again for the response.

A: "I think you have an interesting neurological disorder."
B: "My brain is my favourite organ, and I won't have you disparaging it! Where the hell do you get off?!"
A: "Ummm. In the shower?"
Together: "This conversation. At least one of us is doing it wrong."

Would the above scenario (or rather, the serious variant of it) actually be worse than other interactions where you manage to piss one another off?

A fair point, actually, as funny as it might be. I just.. honestly, I know this sounds very condescending, and it probably is, but it is just really fascinating to me how differently our brains work, and interactions like this, while they sound brutally, insanely arrogant to me.... I understand why that might come off as much less arrogant to an aspie (though I think anybody, no matter how their brain works, would instantly feel 'wtf, as*hole') ;p

I guess for me it's just really difficult to determine whether a conversation like that is really any worse to him than a very tame like 'dude, people don't like that.' Whereas I know exactly how I'd react to them, I still find it hard to read how he'll react. Which is again, why, I turn to random interwebs people to help

Conversations similar to that aren't really all that rare though, lol. And he's the kind of person that already finds some of them funny. So, if he had more of an idea that he's really thinking in a different manner than I am... well we'd probably laugh our asses off at that

I'll be honest with you, the reason why I'm especially interested in hearing some examples of your co-worker's socially unacceptable behavior is because my first impression of your approach (no matter the noble intent you have) is that you are crossing the line. But then again, I have no idea of the situation or how bad it is, or what line of work you are in. It's all about degrees of severity I guess and without examples it's difficult to put any of this in a proper context. But again, my impression without that context is that you are crossing the line and unnecessarily meddling where you shouldn't be. Because on paper, it is ridiculously easy to imagine how one may view a co-worker as very condescending and arrogant to be broaching these kinds of things about a person's general behavior, personal life, and the way they live their life. If he has been able to hold down a job, then one can assume that he is competent enough to seek out professional psychological help if he is so inclined and feels like he can't cope with the way things currently are. If he is not so inclined, then despite your noble efforts in attempting to steer him in that direction, I really don't see what good this could do. But again, I don't know the extent of his behavior and how it rubs people the wrong way as you say. And for what it's worth, I admire the fact that you are willing to take personal risks and to invest your time in trying to help someone. Just my 2 cents.

I don't understand how a diagnosis is going to magicly change how he interacts with people. Isn't it kind of hardwired that way?

I guess I'm kind of asking this because I don't feel that a diagnosis is an answer. It's just the start of another question.

My 2 cents, which seems to differ from many that have responded, is that I'd have given almost anything if someone would've gently let me know that I may be on the spectrum. Granted, I differ a little from the scenarios given in the original post, as I'm female,and not really seen as callous. I'm also not officially diagnosed. I've struggled a lot in my life, without any good explanation as to why. I just thought that I was an epic failure. I also got really defensive when people corrected me all the time. It's hard not to be when you feel like everything that you do is wrong, and everyone else is always right. It's really frustrating.

I'm not sure how to tell you to go about telling your co-worker about AS, or even if you should. I've seen in some of the replies that if he seems to be doing okay, maybe you shouldn't. I'm not sure that one would know if he is okay. It's not like I ever told my co-workers that I was having any problems. I would have never done that. I went to great lengths to cover up anything that I thought was a fault of mine. I also did see a number of therapists when I was younger. None of them quite knew what was going on with me, and none of them helped. I stopped going to see them at all. I never shared that info with co-workers. Hinting would not have helped me. Before I discovered AS on my own, I didn't have a very objective view of myself. Sometimes, I still don't. I don't see myself in the same light as others do.

I guess if you decide to tell him, I'd be gentle, but direct. I'd also not talk about the issue anymore with others. Keep it between you two. That's the part that I would be most upset about. I'd be very upset if I felt that a bunch of people were sitting around discussing my weirdness behind my back. It would make me paranoid, and would probably bother me enough to possibly make me look for a new job. I know that sounds extreme, but it's how I'd feel. You don't want to make it feel like an intervention with several people swooping down trying to save this guy from himself. That will only get a bad reaction, and rightfully so. I hate it when people try to turn me into their project. It's extremely patronizing.