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Squidward
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26 Oct 2009, 2:23 am

I can't speak for all Aspies, but I myself have a very pronounced and almost disabling sense of empathy.

I'll tell you why below, but first I just want to clear something up. When 9/11 occurred, I could hear my mum in the family room, watching the TV, she sounded upset. I got up to see what it was, and she told me, "Two planes have crashed into the twin towers." The first thing that went through my 11-year-old mind was, "Wow, cool." I didn't consider it horrifying, but amazing. As time passed and I saw individual accounts of what had happened and its effects on them personally did I start to feel the emotions expected of me in such a situation, or not. I didn't feel the tragedy at hearing it said plainly, but when I saw the pain of individuals manifest in shaky speech, or crying, or shaking, did I realise that I was meant to feel bad about it, and only then did I start to feel bad about it. This would mean I demonstrated empathy, right?

On the other hand, if one of those people were in front of my eyes showing their pain, and I was in a prime position to comfort them, above anyone else, I'd have absolutely no clue as to what to do or what to say. If I'm talking with someone who is upset, and I can see them starting to cry (or if I suspect they are about to, which can sometimes be wrong, as I can't pick up on the meanings of certain expressions), I usually say, "Don't," because if they do, I'll be at a total loss, socially, and they or others observing may think I'm heartless, when I'm not. So would this mean I am deficient in the area of sympathy?

The reason I consider my sense of empathy disabling, is because for the last four months I have been following the case of a friend of a friend of mine, who is now my friend, who is facing charges of death, harm and serious harm by dangerous driving, and he faces up to 15 years in prison. I think my brain allowed me to empathize with him to such an extent because of all the similarities between him and me that it picked up on: we're both Greek-Australian, we're both around the same age (I'm 19 and he's 20), he has no cruel or malicious thoughts, and is very much an unremarkable person (if I may be so blunt).

On top of all of these similarities was the sense of missed opportunity; he was meant to be in the same class as me in the first year of high school, but the school found out that his parents had lied about his address. This would allow him to get into the school, as they did not live in the school zone. He was kicked out and sent to another high school, where my best friend from primary school was going to attend. When the school year started, I wondered where he was, because he had a peculiar-sounding surname that I remembered, and because he was one of five Greek-Australians in my class. He went to the other school, along with my friend, and I pretty much lost contact with my friend. We definitely don't see each other as often as we did at primary school.

The cruel part of the case of the schools is that both of them were involved in the accident, one driving, and my primary school friend injured. Since then, they have not been allowed to communicate, in accordance with bail conditions, but I have been communicating with both. My primary school friend says he's a w*ker, and always considered him so, but I don't believe him. The one facing the charges told me that he wants nothing more than to talk to the guys that were in the car, to apologize.

It's a whole swirl of sh*t that I've never been subjected to in the past, so in order to try and remedy it (I presume), my brain has forced me to empathize with the one aspect of the whole situation which is not yet resolved, the criminal trial for the driver, and since first seeing his distraught face in a photograph in the newspaper, I have been unable to let it go in any fashion, and since then I have discovered things about myself, through his own misfortune, that I didn't even know about, such as my distaste for the bereaved (see my blog if you want to know more about that). I might as well be facing the charges, and the court appearances, and the media attention. That's how closely linked to the case my brain has forced me to be.

On top of all of that, the court heard a few days ago that he had just been diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome himself (in a mercy plea, saying that he won't receive proper "treatment" in prison), and I immediately attributed that to the intense empathy I've been feeling, as though I unconsciously sensed something that made it my responsibility to be his representative unto myself (up until a couple of weeks ago, I had never even spoken to him, bar casual chitchat about knowing each other's friends, and other meaningless things) and subsequently, on the internet.

And, of course, it's disabling because there's a haze of depression that affects my dad-to-day life, and my personality, and although I'm attempting to be stoical about it all, I can't get the image of his face, contorted with grief, typical Aspie-like emotional immaturity forced out into the open, totally exposed, he, himself, being subjected to something he has never experienced and which he doesn't fully understand, out of my mind.

I've some online friends about this attachment to his case, and the way I feel about the case, and my attachment to it, and one person in particular said, "Seek help before you begin to deteriorate." I told him I didn't want to right away, that if I sought help now, any progress I might make would take a nosedive in the event of the driver being sentenced to a term in prison. I said, "After sentencing." He said, "No, right away." He meant help along the lines of a psychiatrist, to treat potential depression, but I just don't feel that's necessary.

For me it seems the natural thing is to sit and be alone, and will it all to pass, and to end well, so it can be over, simply.


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Squidward
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05 Nov 2009, 11:48 pm

bump


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06 Nov 2009, 12:07 am

Squidward wrote:
I can't speak for all Aspies, but I myself have a very pronounced and almost disabling sense of empathy.

I'll tell you why below, but first I just want to clear something up. When 9/11 occurred, I could hear my mum in the family room, watching the TV, she sounded upset. I got up to see what it was, and she told me, "Two planes have crashed into the twin towers." The first thing that went through my 11-year-old mind was, "Wow, cool." I didn't consider it horrifying, but amazing. As time passed and I saw individual accounts of what had happened and its effects on them personally did I start to feel the emotions expected of me in such a situation, or not. I didn't feel the tragedy at hearing it said plainly, but when I saw the pain of individuals manifest in shaky speech, or crying, or shaking, did I realise that I was meant to feel bad about it, and only then did I start to feel bad about it. This would mean I demonstrated empathy, right?


I can relate to that. I was 16 when the planes crashed and I couldn't understand why they were making a big deal and obsessing over it. Even kids in my school didn't seem to care but then I got scared when I learned it was an attack and I thought there was going to be more. Kids were also saying it was World War III and it freaked me out. I thought we were going to enter a war and it be another WWII. Well we did enter one anyway but it was not WWIII. So this was more likely you being 11 than being an aspie just like the way I experienced 9/11, it had to do with being 16 because the other kids in my school didn't seem effected by it or scared. In fact they got sick of hearing about it from their teachers and one of the freshmen put the towers on their homecoming floats. The principal was coming by checking them all out and she made them take their towers down. I didn't get it back then but I think I do now. People don't want to be reminded by the disaster so the last thing they need is seeing those fake towers and bam it brings back all their feelings from day one. Heck you never know, they could have had a friend in the building or a family member who died in it or had someone they knew die in one of the planes. Now today, doing that wouldn't be a big deal.

Quote:
On the other hand, if one of those people were in front of my eyes showing their pain, and I was in a prime position to comfort them, above anyone else, I'd have absolutely no clue as to what to do or what to say. If I'm talking with someone who is upset, and I can see them starting to cry (or if I suspect they are about to, which can sometimes be wrong, as I can't pick up on the meanings of certain expressions), I usually say, "Don't," because if they do, I'll be at a total loss, socially, and they or others observing may think I'm heartless, when I'm not. So would this mean I am deficient in the area of sympathy?


Luckily normal people have this issue too. Miscarriages are an example. People just don't know what to say to women about it or how to comfort them. So they say nothing at all.

Quote:
The reason I consider my sense of empathy disabling, is because for the last four months I have been following the case of a friend of a friend of mine, who is now my friend, who is facing charges of death, harm and serious harm by dangerous driving, and he faces up to 15 years in prison. I think my brain allowed me to empathize with him to such an extent because of all the similarities between him and me that it picked up on: we're both Greek-Australian, we're both around the same age (I'm 19 and he's 20), he has no cruel or malicious thoughts, and is very much an unremarkable person (if I may be so blunt).


You two were probably close and he mattered that much to you, so your empathy system is working. With him being locked away, you won't be able to be with him anymore unless you can see him in prison but it still won't be the same.

Quote:
On top of all of these similarities was the sense of missed opportunity; he was meant to be in the same class as me in the first year of high school, but the school found out that his parents had lied about his address. This would allow him to get into the school, as they did not live in the school zone. He was kicked out and sent to another high school, where my best friend from primary school was going to attend. When the school year started, I wondered where he was, because he had a peculiar-sounding surname that I remembered, and because he was one of five Greek-Australians in my class. He went to the other school, along with my friend, and I pretty much lost contact with my friend. We definitely don't see each other as often as we did at primary school.


Well that's normal to feel that way. I had a friend too who was seven years younger than me. One day we were playing video games together and then the next day, he didn't come over as usual. I didn't think anything but when days passed, I started to wonder where he went. Then I heard he was in Europe with his dad's family and it sounded BS. I mean it takes six weeks for a passport to get to you after filling out paper work for it. I am sure my friend would have said something about him going to Europe if he were. He has a mouth and blabs things out. I think social services came and took him and the mother didn't want to tell us so she lied. She was a horrible liar.



Ishtara
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06 Nov 2009, 12:46 am

Squidward wrote:
On top of all of that, the court heard a few days ago that he had just been diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome himself (in a mercy plea, saying that he won't receive proper "treatment" in prison), and I immediately attributed that to the intense empathy I've been feeling, as though I unconsciously sensed something that made it my responsibility to be his representative unto myself (up until a couple of weeks ago, I had never even spoken to him, bar casual chitchat about knowing each other's friends, and other meaningless things) and subsequently, on the internet.


I remember seeing this on the news. It was this case which led me to look further into whether I might have Aspergers myself -- until I heard this I'd been under the impression it was something always picked up on as a child. I found the case memorable, as usually I think that anyone who causes death by dangerous driving deserves to rot in jail, but his actions since showed such honest repentance that I was forced to reconsider my usual view.

Like you, I responded to September 11 with more fascination than fear. I might reliably cry in emotional movies, but I can view disasters with a calm and rational detatchment. This fascination continued long after the media lost interest, and eventually led to my current course of study in security and international politics.



oppositedirection
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08 Nov 2009, 2:57 pm

Seeing someone in pain is usually not enough for the average human, they have to relate to it. However, normal people relate via social intuition, something autistics struggle with. Instead, we use rationality than social intuition to formulate our social views. Hence, providing it is in some social context, most normal people will feel empathy but the autistic needs some rational understanding of that person before they will feel empathy.


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Squidward
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13 Dec 2009, 11:45 am

Spokane_Girl wrote:

I can relate to that. I was 16 when the planes crashed and I couldn't understand why they were making a big deal and obsessing over it. Even kids in my school didn't seem to care but then I got scared when I learned it was an attack and I thought there was going to be more. Kids were also saying it was World War III and it freaked me out. I thought we were going to enter a war and it be another WWII. Well we did enter one anyway but it was not WWIII. So this was more likely you being 11 than being an aspie just like the way I experienced 9/11, it had to do with being 16 because the other kids in my school didn't seem effected by it or scared. In fact they got sick of hearing about it from their teachers and one of the freshmen put the towers on their homecoming floats. The principal was coming by checking them all out and she made them take their towers down. I didn't get it back then but I think I do now. People don't want to be reminded by the disaster so the last thing they need is seeing those fake towers and bam it brings back all their feelings from day one. Heck you never know, they could have had a friend in the building or a family member who died in it or had someone they knew die in one of the planes. Now today, doing that wouldn't be a big deal.


I've heard some stories of the mass hysteria that broke out in the US after 9/11. There wasn't anything near that happening here in Australia, so some of the stories were genuinely shocking, such as a man in an emergency room who tried to strangle his Pakistani doctor. The film "Donnie Darko", my favourite film, flopped because it was released a month a half later, and it featured a part of a plane falling into a building, and an "Arabic"-styled font on title cards, even though it was actually a Turkish-style font. I really would have been at a loss at interacting with people were I in the US at that time.

Spokane_Girl wrote:
You two were probably close and he mattered that much to you, so your empathy system is working. With him being locked away, you won't be able to be with him anymore unless you can see him in prison but it still won't be the same.


Actually, I've never met him in person. I acknowledged his presence in the one-off day at our soon-to-be new high school at the end of 2002, and since his court appearances I've chatted with him online, but I've never actually spoken to him face-to-face. My empathy isn't based on the potential loss, but rather my distaste for human pain, no matter where it comes from. I see this person in pain, and it is very avoidable, but it continues to happen. It really doesn't sit well with me, and it refuses to let me be.

Ishtara wrote:

I remember seeing this on the news. It was this case which led me to look further into whether I might have Aspergers myself -- until I heard this I'd been under the impression it was something always picked up on as a child. I found the case memorable, as usually I think that anyone who causes death by dangerous driving deserves to rot in jail, but his actions since showed such honest repentance that I was forced to reconsider my usual view.


But, you see, the thing is that I believe that in all cases where a death is caused on account of a bout of recklessness, repentance is automatic. I think the charge of “causing death by dangerous driving” makes no sense, as there isn’t a criminal urge that needs to be addressed. Punishment for such an offence will not benefit anyone. I’ve gone to much more depth on this issue in the past, and I’m working on formulating a written work (would that be called a “thesis”?) which exposes the illogic inherent in the justice system. Ask me about it if you want to know more about it. I’d be happy to ramble for hours. :wink:


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Squidward
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13 Jan 2010, 3:02 am

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SilentScream
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13 Jan 2010, 6:18 am

Squidward wrote:
I've some online friends about this attachment to his case, and the way I feel about the case, and my attachment to it, and one person in particular said, "Seek help before you begin to deteriorate." I told him I didn't want to right away, that if I sought help now, any progress I might make would take a nosedive in the event of the driver being sentenced to a term in prison. I said, "After sentencing." He said, "No, right away." He meant help along the lines of a psychiatrist, to treat potential depression, but I just don't feel that's necessary.

For me it seems the natural thing is to sit and be alone, and will it all to pass, and to end well, so it can be over, simply.


I agree with the friend who told you to seek treatment.

Best case scenario, there is no conviction. You will still be traumatised by this, and you have a whole lifetime of experiences ahead of you, without the tools to deal with instances like this and worse.

Worst case scenario, there is a conviction. When you're in deep serious landslide meltdown, it's hard enough to get people to understand anything, let alone set about explaining to your parents what you need, finding the professional that you need, explaining to the professional, etc.

Think of it like a house where you're expecting a flood.
You would get a bunch of boxes, pack up all your games, electronic gadgets, favourite clothes and shoes, and send them somewhere safe so that when the flood hits, you are ready to deal with the water and cleaning up your room.

Waiting until your room and stuff are under several feet of flood water is a really bad time to start trying to find boxes, pack the drowned and dead equipment, etc.


So this is why it's a good idea to find the help now. It's work, but you are spending your time in pain anyhow, and if you don't direct your energy into putting your hand up for help, then you're just going to sit in the rut, spinning the wheels of your head into the mud, digging yourself deeper in.

If you saw someone doing that with their car, you'd want them to stop, get out and you would maybe even help them dig themselves out of the mud, wouldn't you?
But you know if they sit there in the car, spinning, you KNOW they're not getting out of that, and it will get worse.