Autism and Borderline Personality Disorder

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How many autistic children are raised by one or more caregiver who has BPD? My theory is that men with Asperger’s have a tendency to pick women who are BPD. It is basically low self esteem meets manipulative narcissism. If we assume that autism does have a genetic component to it and having one parent on the spectrum increases the likelihood that the child will be autistic, then it would be likely that a significant number of autistic children are actually raised by a BPD caregiver.

Which one's which? I've met a few people with both disorders and to be honest, both terms could apply to either condition and often the same person.

I honestly don't know if my biological parents had anything that could be linked to my issues. I was adopted wen i was 7 but I do know they were heavy into drugs though at the time of my and my brother's births and while growing up.

Sometimes I think it just happens and too often people try to find links and solutions to things that just are.

Uh, no, BPD is unrelated to narcissism, actually. BPD is basically created by someone who doesn't have a very good sense of who they are; so they define themselves based on who they're with or what they do. That's where the manipulation comes from; it's a desperate attempt to control the people around them because they feel like if they lose a relationship, they're losing part of themselves. They are the furthest thing from narcissists--narcissism means thinking yourself a great deal better than everyone else; borderlines generally don't even know who they are to begin with. Not that they can't be angry or manipulative, especially since most of them aren't very good at keeping their moods stable; but they aren't narcissists.

The fragile sense of self that accompanies BPD people can in fact manifest in the need for an individual to have everyone adhere to their approach and perspective. This is done through manipulation and grooming of others and then., as others get closer, the BPD individual becomes more abusive and more attacking and demanding of others in terms of an adherence to their perspective.

A fairly good indicator of BPD'ers is to find out about the quality and history of their relationships over time. Often they will have a very isolated life and they will have a tendency to "burn people" emotionally the closer those people get.They may have isolated themselves from immediate family and they may have a history of disrupted employment because of their manipulations which they will perceive as their "purist" way of viewing the world. Look around. They may not have ANYONE in their lives. Does the BPD'er have any lasting people in their life? Or has EVERYONE left? IS there a pattern of vitriol or negativity about anyone who "got close and then proved to be no good?" How are their past friendships or even just relationships - family, employment, neighbourhood? Are there any people still there?

BPDer's also tend to pedestalise people early on in a friendship or relationship. They will set others up as incredible, and when the humanity and flawed nature, the undulations and inconsistencies of the other person who is simply being human, begins to manifest, they start to strategically make that person 'pay" for falling off the pedestal. They'll hold you to their high expectations and you will always fall. Bit by bit they will try to pedestalise themselves in relation to you- because equitable friendship and relating does not exist in their world. You need to fall for them to feel ok. You need to be 'flawed, confusing, no good in the end," so they can be "perfect." No-one can live up to their demands of relating in the end. The only course of action is to remove oneself entirely, cease contact, and LEAVE.


I've had experience with a few AS/BPD people who are in complete denial about their issues. They can be abusive, nasty, HIGHLY Manipulative and clever and in the end, VERY VERY dangerous to be around. YOU can leave an experience of relating with them, completely gutted and disturbed by the strategies they employ.

I spoke with an artist friend about it yesterday, who is also on the spectrum. I went up to his house in the bush near here, lots of birds around, lots of fresh organic vegies to eat. a lovely breeze blowing, water dragons...a great day to have experienced - the beauty of nature all around. Both he and I were discussing similar patterns about individuals that had crossed our paths over the years. and one of the dangers is that if one is ASD, one may not clearly read the warning signs that are there and that need to be read before one moves into relating with an unresolved BPD individual.

And the other issue is that if one is ASD and BPD - the two can get confused and the BPD is denied by the individual, and they continue to view all their issues as a result of their ASD. Apparently Whitetiger (Laura Paxton) who comes on to WP has written a good book about BPD and how to heal from it.

I think it important that some women and men actually get screened for BPD - those who have a history of poor relating and no lasting relationships - because finding out about it can help them to heal and develop more constructive ways of relating to others - ways that will not keep them pinned into a permanent cycle of BPD manifestations - pedestalising and crucifying others - and enable them to live a little more happily. But in the end, it is up to an individual to be open to taking those steps. I wish them well,but I cannot have them in my life.

Last edited by millie on 10 Feb 2010, 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

You're forgetting about all the borderline men out there. Actually, the male/female ratio is something like the reverse of autism, and we all know autistic women exist, yes? So do borderline men. And yes, it's underdiagnosed in men just like autism's underdiagnosed in women.

Very fair point. I'll take that on board and alter my post above. It's important for me to be open to the issue of the female/BPD stereotyping that sticks in my throat and perhaps i've fallen in to it myself, this occasion.
It's a lot like the Freudian "hysteria" garbage. (Jeffrey Masson - wrote an excellent book on that issue, called "The Assault on Truth" when the first wave of criticism of Freud's own biases against women began to be absorbed into mainstream western culture.

Hi there,

Don't know if this helps.......

My parents were not dx with BPD as it was not heard of back then in any real context, but my mother certainly showed traits of it.

I was dx BPD 16 years ago........at 36(now) AS is being explored.......

Not disagreeing, but contrary to what someone stated above, I was also stated as being narcissistic,........as well as sociopathic, anti-social and extremely violent. Which kind of throws all that was thought of me into question. I have read that a proportionate number of females with undiagnosed AS have serious difficulties with self- identity, which is one of the cornerstone criteria in the dx of BPD.

I had a mixture of both violence and eccentricity in my childhood from my mother. My father was very conservative, but loving.

There is varying degrees of the spectrum of autism on my fathers side of the family. If you want to know about anything to to with BPD, feel free to ask.

Mics

Interesting theory. My dad is a light aspie type and my mom is a narcissistic/borderline type, though not full blown pathological but she has strong tendencies.

Michsta, that is why it is really very important in some cases for both AS and BPD to be explored thoroughly with the help of a clinician who has an understanding of the crossover presentations that can present in some with ASD's. It is really important that these issues get teased out and sorted through and addressed, regardless of the label, in the end.
it makes for happier people who can be happier with themselves.
Thanks for

Ironically my dad had was diagnosed as being bipolar and my mom has had history of depression and social anxiety. I do sometimes I wonder if she is on the spectrum. She's discussed her issues that're fairly similar to mine in regards to social skills and her sensory issues.

I am very sorry that this has happened to you. It is devastating. I have spent much of my adult life trying to make peace with myself and others.......I agree, I was very dangerous. And to be brutally honest, I still can be if I or my family are threatened.

I never denied my violent roots........even if I did not want to speak of them. I understood that my behaviour certainly reflected what was dx. However, I did feel remorse, and guilt and longing and love.......I just could not express it, or understand it, or perpetuate it. I was abused in many ways over and over again......and so became the abuser. I would stare at ex boyfriends whom I had probably driven mad by my aloofness and laid back attitude, while they screamed verbal abuse at me about my inability to LOVE, and think "What the hell are they talking about? I love, deeply. Why can't they see that." And the more I could not connect, or express intimacy or be affectionate, the more the storm built inside of me, and the more rage I expressed. I was trapped within myself without knowing it, unless it was brutally pointed out.

I am now engaged to a wonderful man and have a robust and healthy(if not moody) teenage son........I have worked incredibly hard for many years to bring the darkness in to the light. I thank you for telling your story.......it has made me reflect on my actions in the past and it is good to see your point of view so articulately put.

Thank you.......and I definitely agree......stay away from danger, whether it be emotional, physical or mental. Thats what I am doing.

Mics

Woah there. woah. Let's get the facts straight first: Borderline Personality Disorder is a an Axis II diagnosis marked by persistent emotional disregulation, marked instability with interpersonal relationships, impulsive behaviors, "splitting" (which is sometimes referred to as black and white thinking) and fear of abandonment (real or imaginary). It has nothing to do with narcissism or anything like that.

The manipulation, volatility, "danger", "taking their identity from others", if you will, while it certainly can be a very real part of the disorder, is not everyone and is more the way that the media frames it. Frankly, its the stigma speaking.

AND

As far as - "the only course of action is to remove oneself entirely, cease contact, and LEAVE." (which I suppose is exactly what you should do anytime someone on the spectrum has a meltdown or acts "inappropriately"?, let's be fair here people..) Maybe other people just don't understand how we think (or feel rather).

In fact the reason I joined WP is that I often feel like I, in fact, am on another planet. I am a 22 year old female with BPD - which taking a cue from you guys on the spectrum, like to refer to myself as a "Bordie" (also to talk about things like this because I think ASDs and BPD are more closely related than most people think, but that's for another time.)

Now I can get to the actual question. I wouldn't doubt that some of the brain mechanisms that affect those with ASD are similar to those with BPD, that has yet to be proven, but it wouldn't surprise me if many people on the spectrum has a parent (male or female) with BPD, due to neurobiological factors that may affect both disorders.

Also keep in mind that BPD is often a misdiagnosis for AS b/c of the disproportionate male/ female ratio as Michhsta stated in her post through her own experiences.

On the subject of AS men being with Borderline women I can say that maybe that's true, but I don't know. Perhaps people with ASD would be attracted to Bordies b/c in many ways they are complimentary disorders, like mirrors of one another. For example, we understand people to a fault, we personalise everything, humanize everything, in fact we can pick up on non-verbal cues way better than even NT people can, sometimes I think of it as over empathy syndrome- and this is one of the gifts of BPD. Sometimes we just feel too much. If you talk to a Bordie, you will find that things in common we have with ASD is that we often have similar sensory processing issues, don't pick up social cues very well, find it difficult to be in most social situations. We even stim (although its framed in a very different way). We're the touchy feely emotional type to the logical spock like type (which is just an example and not to say all those on the spectrum are like Spock, but I think you get the idea..)

Just my two cents.

Oh.. take care.
I am a big girl, and fine. I know when to retreat and say NO MORE.
And what sounds so good about your issues is your openness and willingness to address them. That is the key to any issue - not whether you have it or not.....but what one does about it as an accountable and self-responsible human being.
Ad thank you for sharing your perspective and your insights here.

Totally Millie.......I agree.

I think the devastation lies in the crossover. Not only was I dx with BPD and those other things mentioned, but I was also dx with scizoaffective, bipolar II (rapid cycling) and GAD. If you were to look at my psych records which are huge, you would see a complete mishmash of dx all over the place. I am not saying all my shrinks and docs were wrong, it just seems to convoluted to have any real merit. All they concentrated on was getting me to stay out of jail basically and keep myself and my son safe. My son was in no danger by the way. I would have thrown myself off a cliff before anything happened to him.

So they medicated the crap out of me......Thorazine, lithium, zyprexa, anti-depressants, benzo's and so on. With multiple hospital admissions and therapist couches. I was a social pariah, dangerous and volatile, while my 5 year old self cowering in the corner, wanting to be heard as I REALLY was. My rage was born of survival, like a trapped animal that has been tormented one too many times. No-one was interested in exploring AS with me. I could speak well, I was highly intelligent and cunning ........but could not lie if asked for the truth directly and had no clue how to manipulate with any success. I just took things by force and was brutally honest. I see the inconsistencies now. I am not saying I do not have BPD, I am not saying they were wrong. It is just that there is more at play here and my current psychologist and psychiatrist are helping me to get it sorted with a change in direction in therapy(more "dealing with AS" orientated) and psychometric testing.

Believe me, I am grieving........grieving for all the years that I thought I was not human, because I had been told that I wasn't. When all along, my humanity was mostly intact, I just couldn't process it.

Mics

I am quite afraid of people with personality disorders because of their ability to lie and manipulate along with their seeming total lack of conscience. I was manipulated and victimized over a long period of time and I have learned my lesson. Being a victim of abuse also doesn't automatically make an individual subject to this disorder and that makes me wonder all the more about how and why it occurs in people. I am a survivor of very severe abuse yet I don't have any personality disorders. The person in my life who did have these disorders had a fairly normal life, I would say rather spoiled, yet exhibited all of the above. We should be careful about making a lot of generalizations in these matters.