Non-informative conversations?

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I pulled this from a thread in The Haven:

This idea has been bothering me since I first read it in Attwood's The Complete Guide to Asperger's Syndrome so when I saw it here I had to speak up. I just can't wrap my head around why else people would communicate, if not for information exchange. When I read this in Attwood's book I made notes on it, wrote about it in my own notes, even asked a person or two about it hoping for illumination (which is not something I do lightly or easily), but with no clear success. I realize that this has caused much trouble for me in the past.

If the purpose of a conversation, or any act of communication, is not the exchange/gathering/dissemination of information, than what is it? Also, as a secondary question, how could accuracy not be considered vital? If information is being dealt with, why would one not wish it to be accurate?

(Oh ya, I've been around for a while but this is my first post. If I get the nerve up to post again I'll maybe do an intro thread.)

Well, they are exchanging information. it's just information we find to be uninteresting.

They are exchanging social status cues. Does this guy like me, does he hate me? Am I still top of the pack, middle of the pack, bottom? Am I being respected or not? Do I look silly? They are looking for and transmitting language (verbal and otherwise) that communicates these things to each other. The only time a fact comes into play is when one party can make use of it to elevate his or her status in the eyes of those he wants to impress, or use it against someone else, or something.

You can tell that I have a tenuous grasp on this stuff myself. It may well be a thousand times more complicated than that, for all I know.

It's like we have two different currencies, and each group finds the other's valueless.

that has to be it. there is definitely something going on that I am missing. alot of times I think it leads to sex. maybe this is why some of us don't have sex much. i really don't know how they get from that kind of conversation to sex. but it must work because humans are overrunning the planet. if there wasn't something vital going on in these conversations the species would have died out a long time ago. whatever it is, I am not in on it. when I try to talk about things that I want to people think I am weird. maybe if you are just really quiet and nod alot you could get by but to me that is boring.

All that and more. The social status cues apply the most to people who know each other but are not intimate- coworkers, people you just met or have only spent a short amount of time with, people in an unstable social circle (high school or the New York City art scene).

For people who are intimate, it has a bonding purpose. Close friends, spouses, family (assuming a stable family) do it to bond rather than to assess social status.

But in all cases, the information exchanged is emotional rather than factual. Small talk with my husband over dinner has a completely different purpose from small talk with my boss as we wait for the meeting to start. But in either case, the information is emotional. Small talk with my husband conveys, "I love you and care about you" (bonding) whereas small talk with my boss conveys "I am an employee who can banter with sales reps and customers too, just like I am with you- give me a chance" (social status). That is information, but it's not factual information.

> I just can't wrap my head around why else people would communicate, if not for information exchange.

They are trying to get to know the other person -- at the same time not revealing too much about themselves that might look bad or that would cause conflict. It can be a delicate balancing act, as people judge each other and themselves a lot. There are lots of reasons to try to get to know the other person: make contacts useful to yourself; know the enemy/competition; and just because they find people fascinating.

That's what I think so far. I am trying to learn how to have such conversations because I need contacts for practical reasons in the world. People are everywhere, so they have to be dealt with frequently. SOME people are very interesting, but you have to get to know people to be able to find those people. A key for me is to shut up more, ask more questions, listen, and try to learn about these bizarre herd animals called social creatures. By talking less, I have more energy to focus on trying to learn, as well as I say less things that put people off. As well, I don't have to switch tasks so much from easy (yapping) to hard (listening and feeling).

That too. It's also a fun way to pass the time (for those who enjoy it, obviously this is not a universal taste ). For instance, if I'm standing in line with somebody we'll make small talk but- like you said- not revealing too much about ourselves. Longs can be very long and very boring and small talk passes the time. But you won't really get to know the person so it's best not to reveal too much. Revealing too much is interpreted as flirting which has its own dangers if that's not what you meant to do.

I also would like to sometimes have a non-argumentative conversation with somebody who has political views in direct opposition to mine. We could exchange factual information about our respective political concerns but that would just lead to a stressful argument. Best to stick to a non-confrontational subject so as to talk to somebody withoput having to have Wikipedia on your iphone just to back up your points.

I've been frustrated with this too. When I was trying to better my social skills I would try and give information to people, then after I'd socilaise with people I'd realise I did very little of that and my friends did it even less. I like to talk to people and learn things, not mindless drivel about celebrities, complaining about the weather for an hour or talking about people I don't know or care about.

I think people do it because it's just so natural for them to converse with one another, and I also think that it's something that they enjoy, something that builds their relationship, something that is healthy for them and confidence building. Most importantly it's something that just comes easy for them.
Whereas with us it's one train wreck after another.

Yes. If you enjoy doing something, you tend to do it whenever the opportunity arises and will even create opportunities just so you can do it more. If you don't enjoy it, you do it the minimum amount necessary to achieve whatever your goal is.

I am like this with math. I dislike it and am very bad at it. Nonetheless, I do have to do a minimal amount of it to survive- to shop, to work, to bank. I do the absolute minimum amount of math that I absolutely have to do and do no math that I don't have to do. Unlike me, there are lots of people who enjoy math, do it with ease, and do far more of it than is absolutely necessary for financial survival. They, unlike me, do math games and solve math puzzles for recreation. These are forms of math that they don't have to do but do anyway for fun. Small talk is similar. If you like it- you do it as much as you can for fun. If you don't- you do the bare minimum necessary for social survival.

Yep, I hate math and have struggled with it all throughout school. I'm even bad at it when I'm doing shopping. But it is something unavoidable in daily life, much like being social. I ignore the small talk as much I can, but even communication in my job is important.

Hello. This is all very interesting to me. Could you describe the bonding mechanisms, and give some more examples of behaviour that include it, and why? If that's not asking too much.

Do people in close relationships not do the status jockeying thing? I'm sure they do sometimes. I think the confusion arises when they switch willy nilly between the two modes of bonding and jockeying, or do them simultaneously. I'm sure that's theoretically possible. Are there any other modes that have yet to be identified within this thread?

The bonding mechanism works like this: when you exchange small talk with somebody you are already close to it sends the emotional message "I like spending time with you. I like talking to you even when there is no vital piece of information needs to be exchanged." If I only talked to my husband about vital information like an upcoming parent/teacher conference or that my car needs a new muffler he would feel sad and shut-out. And I would feel the same if he did this with me. Saying "oh look, it's snowing again" even though he can see it's snowing quite easily says, "I don't just have a utilitarian relationship with you- I like being with you".

It works the same way with friends. The small talk signals that your relationship is based on liking being with each other, not just on a utilitarian need to get some goal accomplished. Small talk with co-workers signals that you like working with them (assuming you do) and you are not suffering through the workday merely being in their presence.

People in close relationships can certainly do status jockeying. But it won't be done through small talk. They know each other too well. Small talk as a way to jockey for status or to assess status works best when you don't know an enormous amount about each other. In a close relationship that is undergoing a change, information is more likely to be exchanged through actions rather than small talk. For instance, a man who wants to know if his wife still notices him (wants status information) might aggresively flirt with another woman to spark jealousy in his wife.

I'll try to make my own bullet-point summary of small-talk purposes:

>To figure out things about a person you don't know very well without giving away too much about yourself

>To figure out where you stand in an unstable social group

>To send status information about yourself to a person who can affect that status (small talk with the boss)

>To let people know you enjoy spending time with them even when no information is being exchanged

>To pass the time while doing something boring that takes awhile (small talk amongst people standing in a long line)

>To let a potentially hostile person know that you are not a threat (diplomatic small talk, there is plenty of news footage of heads of state doing this before diplomatic talks begin)

That's awesome Janissy. Much thanks.

Good summary Janissy.

Generally I think it's a lot easier with direct information, but I also understand the appeal of emotional exhanges as long as it's positive and not negative. I don't understand the purpose of jockeying for position at all. Not in general, and certainly not in close relationships. But some people think that's important.

It's confusing when someone says something to mean one thing and then says it again later to mean another thing. I feel like the people in the story of the boy who cried wolf. How can I muster the emotion again and again? But in those situations people have to work together to come up with a style of communication that works for both. That might take a long time I guess.

If someone asks me for validation indirectly it's hit or miss, I might pick up on it or I might not. To get a guaranteed response it would be more effective to say something directly. And then I will be there straight away.

>To figure out where you stand in an unstable social group

Unfortunately, I can't figure any such thing out, and where I stand is likely to be the bottom, as I'm socially clueless.

I am glad such a thing as the Internet exists.
Janissy you are the best non-autistic I have ever seen the words of.

But social people have just dug themselves deeper into my hole of misunderstanding and contempt (seems too strong but will have to do for now).
It is like, social status is more important than anything else, even information, the thing civilisation is built upon.
I am so very glad very few important people think this.
Maybe the thing that has helped me always will also answer this question correctly.

Yes indeed Whereas in fact a lot of conversations don't lead to sex, if you are looking for sex, you have to go through a labyrinthine test first, and pass through all manner of hoops and hurdles and successfully negotiate through an obstacle course of 'what to say' and 'when to say it'.

And only then, if you pass the test, will you be given the key to the door that leads into the bedroom of pleasure.