Can we develop social skills like a martial art?

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We need to protect ourselves. We might be able to run rings around NT's intellectually but they can still do us serious damage, exclude us and make our lives hell. I wonder if there are a series of moves we can learn to prevent us getting the crap beaten out of us , metaphorically, in social situations.

1. NT's give the impression they own the social space we all interact in. They don't . They never have. It can not be owned. It is created out of the all the social interactions occurring in that moment, in that space. The space didn't exist before you and the NT created it. Hence we have to figure out how to get a fair share of it, defend ourselves from potential aggression and claim our fair share.

Aslo NT's who are bullies are not generally happy or secure individuals. By challenging their behavior we will helping them with their problems. When Evolution Day occurs we might decide to educate/ breed this behavioral trait out of them , but for now we have to learn some basic defense.

What social moves do we have already that can be refined/ modified/honed for this purpose?

This subject is dear to me.

I learned that there are usually no "moves". Both social situations and martial arts are a fluid situation, and in order to understand either, we need to develop that dreaded fluidity, the ability to react spontaneously to events we haven't catalogued and systematized in our heads.

There's no control. Alpha-males/females can control a situation sometimes, but we can't ever hope to be as good at them. Part of it is that we usually don't really care to be the center of attention !

So we need to learn to be fluid. As the alpha-people direct the wave, we need to swim with it, like a boat, without letting it tip us over.

For me, sometimes it works. More often, my emotional mindstate is too dark to utilize what I learned, and I retreat into old, rigid, defensive patterns.

An example of boat tipping over:
___________________________
Hostess: Would you like some of my [dish], it's really delicious ! (people look at me)
Me: (already overwhelmed) No. (people glance at me weird)
Hostess: Don't be shy. I promise its delicious !
Me: Really, no thank you.
Hostess: Aww. Come on ! Don't you like food ?! (more people start glancing at me)
Me: I don't want this food. Please leave me alone.

Result: Hostess is upset, I'm a jerk, etc.



An example of swimming over the incoming wave:
__________________________________________
Hostess: Would you like some of my [dish], it's really delicious ! (people look at me)
Me: (smile) Oh, I'm full, thank you. Maybe later!

Result: Hostess can't say anything else, because now she will be a jerk if she does. Stupid crisis averted.

Just like martial arts, exercising is a good way to improve your social function. The reason, is the increase in self-confidence that it gives you, to be in good shape. Self-confidence is an excellent anxiety reducer, will help you think more clearly, and can drastically effect your willingness to interact socially. When you're comfortable with yourself, you are more able to 'flow', so to speak.


(that's just a tip, not a solution )

Why do you think that all NT's are against us? Sure there are bullies out there but they're not all that way. This 'Evolution Day' you speak of will never happen. We are not the next step. Humans are social creatures and will always be.

Given that according to many people here, and many psychologists/psychiatrists too, there are *perception* problems with AS, then how can anyone learn to respond to something they can't actually perceive?

I guess it may depend exactly where you are on the spectrum. Some people are clearly the 'mildest of the mild' and have improved their social skills. Others have a stronger impairment and while some improvement is always possible, it is slow going and don't forget NT's are *also* improving social skills throughout their life time. Can you ever catch up?

If the question was "can a blind person learn martial arts?", the answer would be "depends on the level of blindness", just the same. (what is commonly called 'blindness' is actually a spectrum of visual impairment too).

I wasn't aware that all neurotypicals were out to get me via their 1337 social skillz. You learn something new every day.

I used to be extremely terrible at communicating. Now I am just terrible at communicating. At this rate, by the time I am 95 years old I should be able to communicate good enough to say 90% of things accurately that others say naturally.

At that point I will probably be old and drooling and mumbling to myself. My communicating skills then will be barley noticeable, and will be of limited use.

It depends a lot on the severity of disability. One can easily learn to become less anxious in situations where they are frightened or lose control. But when you lack a fundamental skills, it will take forever to find substitutes to replace it. One can never cover every possible social interaction, or every possible means of communicating, or playing. At best you can get to an acceptable level, that is good enough to survive.

So while it is possible to make great strides by learning and training, it may take so long, that when you've finally mastered everything, you're too old to use it.

Until society makes an effort to reach the less endowed halfway, or quarter-way, I think the energy put into learning how to be like others could be best put into living life as best we can.

I think it's like the wind. You can't see it, but you can see it's effect in the fluttering of trees etc. NTs can see the wind (metaphorically speaking).



That makes me think of Zatoichi, the blind swordsman, who seems like a pertinent character to bring to the thread.

I think anyone can always make improvements in all aspects of their living, no matter the degree of disability. I think the important thing is to try. Perfection is not a realistic goal in any endeavour. Most NTs are not genius social communicators either.

It's hard for me to talk specific techniques. I do so much intuitively. Monsterland's fluidity concept is one that I can very much get behind. The reliance on strict routines or rules during 'combat' can be a recipe for getting your ass kicked. A good analogy might be that of a highly disciplined karate student dependent on the routines of kata being defeated by a rough and ready street fighter who is more flexible.

But then that suggests to me that the kata must have some value, or fighters would not bother at all. There must be value in developing specific protocols that can be the basis of a general strategy that can then be further adapted and modified on the fly.

Sorry, this has turned into a bit of a brainfart. I'll be dealing with people later, so I can do some field research and hopefully come back later with practical advice.

I must say that the idea of formulating an 'art of war' for aspie socialisation deeply amuses me.

Yes, but it is asymmetrical warfare.

Where we lose,

the size of your social network defines the field.

We do not have the common factors that bond the 99%.

It is a poker game where you have $5, and all the other players have $500.

They have a "Home Field" advantage, and cheering local fans.

Where we win,

where knowledge, technology defines the field.

99% are unable to play.

Now the game has your $5 screw drivers, and their non working $500 computer.

Now they will try to apply the same social skill set, like talking, and when told, I can talk, or work, both cost $1 a minute, and what you are doing is like I was a Doctor operating on your child, and you have come into the operating room and tried to start a conversation about golf?

The tech playground has it's own rules, and they can be made to follow them.

They will revert to type as soon as possible, I get paid before they get the computer back.

While their social network is of the highest value, mine is limited to parts bought online, and if most people died, I might notice a business slowdown, but I would not notice the missing people.

They feel the same about anyone not in their social network, they are not real. In general they group by income range, lifestyle, and what is acceptable in that network. While many factors may seem the same, which network they belong in may have to do with a single factor, some drink and party, others are dry and go to church. Which church also defines them.

So we may think we are outsiders, but truth is, each group has a few insiders living in a world of outsiders. As "The Computer Guy", I can travel through many groups without belonging to any. Every group needs tech services.

The Doctor deals with all people, rich and poor, and there are other social roles that have a free pass.

Doctors also have a place outside of groups, as do the police. They socialize as a group, for everyone is not of their group.

Doctors and hospitals kill more people than murderers and automobiles combined, about 100,000 a year, but the world looks away, because most of the time they do not kill the customer, and their services are not available anywhere else.

Police are the same, 1% bad deals is a great injustice, but the other 99%, were needed.

So there is a broad social tolerance for outsider groups that perform some needed function, they do tend to socialize within their own group, they treat everyone else as background, and it works.

The University system of Degrees and Tenure was an Autistic Club, the same for technology, Patents, places where advanced knowledge was protected. Education and advancing Science are for the general good, and again, they socialize within their own groups.

The Guild System of old functioned as a pan autistic training system. It was a closed social system that linked many skilled trades. It lasted a thousand years before the factory system of a bit over a hundred years ago destroyed it, and the air, water, land, sent masses of people to an early grave, then dumped the lot, and moved on to China.

One at a time we are strange, but the Guilds kept social worlds apart, served everyone, and spread the protection of a group that controlled key industries. The Prentice boy lacked social skill, had no family, but did have a Master who had a Guild, that controlled all skilled trade, so be nice to the boy.

We still exist, but we need our Guilds back.

Exactly. This is why I laugh when people start using evolution to justify our supposed superiority.

Oh come on, they're not all a big, brainless mass of parasites trying to manipulate us to death. It's more honest/awkward vs manipulative than it is AS vs NT.

My husband (who calls himself a "high-functioning NT," lol) and I had a conversation similar to this - as to whether or not the two of us should try honing our presently terrible social skills in a way to make us less vulnerable.

You train them to perceive it. I spent years learning body language and learning to detect signs of personality disorders like Borderline and Histrionic PD (those are pretty much our negative stereotypes of neurotypicals). A lot of it is knowing who to avoid, instead of conversational kung-fu.

Last edited by Aurore on 05 Mar 2010, 11:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

I happened to read this blog post about behaving in meetings. It is presented as a masculine problem.

"Think about the man who...

* Speaks for a long, loud, first and often
* Offers his opinion immediately whenever someone makes a proposal, asks a question, or if there's a lull in discussion
* Speaks with too much authority: "Actually, it's like this…"
* Can't amend a proposal or idea he disagrees with, but trashes it instead
* Makes faces every time someone says something he disagrees with
* Rephrases everything a woman says, as in, "I think what Mary was trying to say is..."
* Makes a proposal, then responds to each and every question and criticism of it - thus speaking as often as everyone else put together (Note: This man often ends up being the facilitator)

And don't get me started about the bad male facilitator who…:
* Always puts himself first on stack, because he can
* Somehow never sees the women with their hands up, and never encourages people who haven't spoken"

Personally I hate the whole idea of consensus-building, which seems like a grand scheme for the powerful to bully the weak into submission whilst convincing them that they participated in decision-making. And focus groups. And all those totally ridiculous polls in newspapers / magazines / websites that imply that if enough idiots believe something stupid, then it must be true.

I don't think we are "superior ". That would be a serious tactical weakness even if this was being seriously proposed a form of social warfare. I know it is not an us and them, no matter how much it can seem that way .

I like Monsterlands idea of developing a state of being where we can make flexible responses.
However I am not quite sure how to get to that state of permanent mind. I know through martial arts training we can learn stuff that comes a second nature if we ever need to use it. With regard to its flexibility outside "Kata" I am inclined to think of the mix of boxing and other martial arts led to the development of kickboxing, which is less rigid and spontaneous. The paradox here is that in order to get to a flexible mind we might need to train to some degree, in rigid Kata first.

There is another dimension to this . I wonder if martial arts are an abstraction of naturally evolving aggressive-defensive techniques that go way back into geological time? You know maybe it is like a language , a conversation that started when the first predator attempted to predate and the prey responded defensively. And that language, that dance has gone on ever since. In us it has diverged ( in a massive complex, like single to complex cell structure) mainly into social interaction , and to an extent this would explain the underlying patterns of social behavior.

- When did the first human conversation begin?- it has never stopped , because
it has been passed on from generation to generation, and in order for us to language today it must have been ongoing- it is the same with the rest of communication except this reaches back further. Regarding collective behavior, this goes back to groups , herds and even further still, to predation and defense. Maybe intellect is what it would take " nature" ten thousand years to develop, condensed into a single human thought and planned action.


I also like Inventor's notion of riding the wave , (and the metaphor for a Society Of The Harvesters Of The Mind in an earlier post.)


My concern is that this ongoing social interaction stretching back like some polymer stand or unbroken thread of DNA makes the structures it creates unstable . When they NT's get collective urge to snatch territory from or have a cull of those who are non-typical of whatever subtype they define themselves as in that moment this is a result of that long string, that " mememtic" strand, and they can't control it or help themselves. With regard to Evolution
(Day), if they can be helped and encouraged to understand , to comprehend and offered a viable alternative then they are not going to burn our planet.

So at an individual level, and a collective level a mutual solution has to be found. The irony is they are not going to find that solution by beating the crap out of the very people who would be willing to give it to them.

It's a conspiracy They are all out to get us using evil rocial rays and programme our brains to copy their every move!

Erm , should I "lighten up"?

I love your posts. I wish you would write a book. I was thinking about this earlier, because I have a tendency to harp on about borderlines and narcissists because I have been done some damage by them, and I was thinking that sometimes being AS is like not being able to see white cars. You can see all the other ones but you can't see the white ones, therefore you are always going to be mowed over and run down unless you begin to act as if there are always cars there even if they are not.

I think my conclusion about this is that the ways I have the opportunity to protect myself are to a) trust no one and b) never speak. I'm not really willing to do this most of the time. I really appreciate what you said about social space not belonging to them. You are right, that is such a crock, and I've never thought about it that way before.