A general consensus?

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For those of you who are familiar with much of what i've said
about myself here on WP, i'd like to know what your honest
assessment of me is.

I'm referring specifically to the learning/memory problems I
believe I have....not whether i'm a nice person or something.

Do you believe i've largely exaggerated these problems or do
you believe they have a genuine neurological origin? If you
believe the former, I would hope you don't believe i've
INTENTIONALLY exaggerated them at least. One thing is
fairly certain....I haven't ENTIRELY imagined the learning
difficulties I have at the very least.

I DO fit the general NVLD profile and that's clearly stated on
just about everyone of my neuropsychological evaluations.
But i'm wondering if any of you think i've exaggerated my
learning problems and either exaggerated or totally imagined
the memory problems I believe I have. The neuropsych evals i've
had which don't mention anything about NVLD still exhibit the
same typical strengths and weaknesses associated with NVLD. It's
just that the particular psychologists who administered them were
either ignorant or skeptical of the NVLD syndrome. Or skeptical
because of their ignorance.

I realize none of you can tell me anything conclusive about my
brain, but i'd love to hear your theories and again, please feel free
to be honest.

Since I have yet another neuropsychogical evaluation coming
up in less than two weeks, (this will be my sixth) this is very
important to me.


I realize another neuropsych eval probably isn't going to tell
me much more than the other five already have, but I need to
do this in order to qualify for OVR services (since OVR requires
a psychological evaluation which is less than three years old) and
I WANT to do it because i'm going to try to convince this
neuropsychologist to recommend an MRI for me in his
report back to OVR. My VR case worker already told me
that VR might be able to cover the costs of an MRI if a
psychologist recommends one. Thus...I want to be sure i'm
"armed to the teeth" with questions and information when
I see this neuropsychologist on the 17th. I am going to bombard
this neuropsychologist with every relevant question/comment
about my brain that I can think of. I am also going to take alot of
professional literature with me which may be relevant to my own
particular circumstances.

But I also have to try to be as succinct as possible and since
my situation is so unique and complex, (or so it seems to me)
that's not going to be easy to do. I'm sure most of you realize
these psychologists won't let anyone sit in their office for hours
on end while they explain their problems. It's one thing if you're
going for weekly therapy ofcourse, but that's not the case with
me in this instance. Their time, like everyone else's, is limited and
YOU...the self-advocating/self-interested patient... must use it wisely.

So...thanks to the damnable incongruity, complexity and idiosyncratic nature of my circumstances, this is not going to be easy.


My problems with executive functioning in terms of planning and
organizing likely won't make it any easier either.



Furthermore....I would like to go back to college/uni
in January. But at this point, I truly don't know if I have
the capacity to handle college-level academics especially
when it comes to anything involving higher math and
science. I am considering psychology as a major and I
would need to pass college algebra (and I didn't even
pass INTRODUCTORY algebra during my last stint in
college) and Stats & Probability for a BA/BS in psych.


So I don't want to waste anymore of my life than I already
have. If I simply don't have the capacity to succeed at
college/uni, then i'd rather find that out now then after
I flunk out or drop all my courses after a few semesters.


Bottom line.....any insight any of you here have would
be very welcome at this point.

I think if you want a reliable NLVD evaluation you need a neuro-psychologist, not a regular one. I don't think there is any way we online forum members can even begin to know if you're descriptions of your issues are accurate or not. All we have to go on are your descriptions. I think you've got good reasons for wanting answers to those questions and hope you find them.

Bottom line, remember you're a person not a label. You're you no matter how various professional people describe you. Don't loose yourself in all of that. I hope you get the answers you want.

I think you should go to school and take the classes that fit your interests. I think you should put off the math and other difficult subjects as long as possible. Doing this will not only increase your self esteem for doing well, but underscore that your learning problems are not insurmountable. Having good grades in one area and lower grades in another should prove that with proper assistance you can succeed.

Can you get the algebra credit at a respected online college? I think if you pull it off getting your degree you would insprire others with learning disabilities/ memory issues / Aspergers to get their degrees as well. Someone like me, if you could do it I will give a degree a try.

I have forgotten words mid sentance and you say is constant with no mix ups or differencewhat I was saying in the middle of saying it. I forget thing as quickly as I hear them. I know the problems and embarrsement memory disorders can bring a person. You never sound like you are exaggerating you are pretty constant about what you say as well. Give the degree a chance.

Several of my evaluations were performed by neuropsychologists.
A neuropsychologist performed my last one over three years ago, but
without going into needless details about him, I just don't think he
was a very good neuropsychologist. I am hoping the one i'll be seeing
on the 17th will be better.

I think most of my evals were pretty decent actually and alot of
the psychologists who administered them were quite knowlegeable
when it comes to NVLD/AS. It's just that for whatever reason, I believe
my learning/memory problems go far beyond those of most people
with NVLD/AS. I believe this in spite of what both my neuropsych evals
and the psychologists who've administered them have told me.

I believe this because own self-observations, academic/vocational
experiences and life experiences in general over the past 40 years
have convinced (or damn-near convinced me at least) me of this.
The neuropsych reports and the psychologists would have me believe
my problems aren't any worse than those of most people with NVLD/AS.

If you've been in this group long enough....you can easily see what
most people with NVLD/AS are capable of academically and in terms of
the various skills/talents they possess which may not be related to
academics. That is....they are capable of countless things which I don't
seem to be capable of at all.

I hate to be redundant here, but I just can't emphasize this enough.
There is NOTHING WHATSOEVER on any of my neuropsych evals
which would suggest my own cognitive abilities are significantly
lesser or different than those of most people with NVLD/AS. Nor
have any of the psychologists who administered these tests told me
that there is. That would include a several very NVLD/AS-knowledgeable
psychologists. Including one who was both the director of the CARD center
(center for autism and related disorders) at the University of Miami and
the head of the psychological services center at UM. This psychologist
was the first one who told me anything substantial about the NVLD
syndrome and he gave me a copy of Dr. Byron Rourke's "Nonverbal
Learning Disabilites...the Syndrome and the Model".

In other words...it's not as if i've dealt with nothing but cranks here.
And yet what else do I have to go on? Shall I consult god or the oracle
of Delphi or something? Even if I wasn't a diehard atheist, I hardly think
those two options would be very useful.

I am fully aware of the fact that none of you here can tell
me much about my issues. Even if you have the expertise,
none of you are walking MRI's or neuropsych tests and the
latter has told me all they can tell me in any case. Nonetheless,
there is a method to my madness and while I admit much of
it is born out of sheer desperation, not all of it is.

From everything i've seen of this group, there are several
people here who seem to know more about NVLD/AS and
neuropsychology/neuroscience in general than even some
of best professionals i've dealt with...if not all of them. Many
of these people don't even have degrees in any related field
and many don't even have a degree in any field. None of this
is really surprising considering the group of people i'm dealing
with.

I don't really agree with the idea that people with AS/NVLD
are no more intelligent than NT's. Sure some of them aren't,
but disproportionately speaking, i'd this group on wrongplanet
(most of whom are Aspies, NLD-ers, or HFA's) are the most
intelligent group of people i've ever encountered. At the very
least, i'd say that's true if we are defining intelligence in terms
of academic ability, scientific knowledge and all-around "book"
smarts". Many are quite gifted in other ways as well.

All that considered....I can't think of too many better places
to seek answers aside from a clinic, research study, etc...which
deals specifically with autism, NVLD and other neuropsych
disorders. My options there are limited by finances and health
insurance which won't cover anykind of psychiatric care. I have
to go where Occupational-Vocational Rehab sends me and this time,
it seems like they're sending me to a decent neuropsychologist based
upon everything i've learned about him online.

Still....more of the same tests probably won't tell me anything
the others haven't even if they're proctored by a god among
neuropsychologists. That's why i'm hoping i'll be able to convince
him to recommend some neuroimaging (probably an MRI) for me
in his report back to OVR. I've had every on-paper neuropsych test
under the sun many times over. Now it's time to actually look at my
brain and see if anything abnormal shows up at all. An MRI may tell
me nothing either, but that's the chance i'm willing to take and i've
got nothing to lose by doing so.

Even the right kind of MRI (for my circumstances and that would
likely be a structural whole-brain analysis MRI or ROI analysis)
would probably tell me nothing about my actual learning problems
per se. But it may be able to tell me something about the possible
neurological origin/s of my long-term memory problems. I believe
these problems are at least as debilitating (and probably far more
so ultimately) than any problems I have comprehending algebra
or something.

And again....NONE of the memory tests i've had on all of my
neuropsych evals suggest I have ANY memory problems, either
with long-term or short-term memory. Still...there is reason to believe
that genuine, neurologically-based, long-term memory impairments
can be overlooked by the standard neuropsychological memory
tests. The following article from the Oxford Journal of Neurology
should serve to support my claim here:

http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/con ... /123/3/472


So you see Kiley....in terms to all *objective* accounts,
i've been told that I am AMONG MANY of you here on
Wrongplanet. That's not to say i've been told that i'm
among the brightest members here... far from it. But I
have been told i'm bright enough and no different in
any significant way than most people with NVLD/AS.

But alas.......my own subjective experiences and observations
for the past forty years have told me the diametric opposite.
They have told me i'm mildly mentally ret*d and that my
own intellect and long-term memory is infinitely inferior to
that of even the most mediorce minds.

I hope you can see the absurd sense of incongruity and confusion
this state of affairs produces in me. The f***ing frustration I deal with
because of it all is beyond anything I can ever express. The envy, rage,
anxiety, depression, hopelessness, etc...I deal with is equally inexpressible.

What's worse is that I happen to be a person who has ALWAYS valued
intelligence, knowledge, talent INFINITELY more than all other things in
existence.

In comparison....I care nothing for all other things which
are little more than ridiculous, infantile, sentimental,
meaningless and ultimately unrewarding TO ME.

All the things I speak of appear to be of great value to
others humans, including most, if not all, other people with
ASD/NVLD. I just don't value them that much if anyone wants
to deem me a ghoul because of it.... so be it.

These things include family, friends, "love", romantic
relationships, humor, sex, alcohol, food, physical appearance,
material possessions, (except the possessions which directly
relate to knowledge/intelligence/talents/skills like musical
instruments, computers, books, etc....), mindless entertainment,
etc.....Needless to say...I realize we all have to eat and stuff, but
I just view eating as a rather annoying necessity and a means to
end. It's yet another mundane thing the mortal coil demands of
us. Some people seem to worship food and will literally travel
hundreds, or even thousands, ( I am not exaggerating here
either...I know a man who actually does this often enough) of
miles just to eat at their favorite restaurant.

That's not to say these things are of no value at all to me, but
I know myself well enough to know that I could live happily
without them all if only I had the intelligence, memory, knowledge
skills and talents many members of this group have. I would do
anything to possess the aforementioned. I would gladly sell my
soul to the devil (or at least be sorely tempted to) were such a
thing possible.

This is who I am....and who i've always been. Some may view me as
a fool for it, but I care nothing for their opinions. I can't apologize for
any of it and frankly, I don't even know why I should. I believe each
and every human being has the right to value and prioritize whatever
they want to in life so long as what they value does no harm to anyone
else.

I just view intelligence, in all it's myriad forms, as the most important
characteristic a human being can possess in terms of their own self-
interest. It the is one and only meaningful thing which seperates our
species from the lowly ape.

And I feel i've been brutally denied, for reasons I may never know,
of the very thing I valued above all other things in the human
experience. So my quest for intellectual and mnemonic self-deification
will continue until my dying day. First I need to find out what exactly
I lack in both areas and then I will do anything in my power to improve
my cognition even if i'm told I have no hope of doing so by god himself.
If I can get my hands on nootropic drugs (if I can ever AFFORD THEM
that is ) that's one option. If I have to visit some Dr. Frankenstein of
a neuroscientist who'll transform my brain much akin to Charlie
Gordon's of "Flowers for Algernon" fame.... then so be it



Algernon was a weak and sentimental literary work IMO which was only meaningful to me insofar as the possibilities of intellectual transformation are concerned and such transformations may not be as unrealistic now in the 21st century as they have been throughout human history. Human beings ARE improving their cognitive abilities and some of these improvements are fairly significant.


I understand many might view me as a rather unlikable,
cold, robotic, one-dimensional and foolish person for what
i've said in this post... but i'm afraid that cannot be helped. I
don't believe in free will anyway, so I pretty much think this
is who I am even if wanted to be somebody different who
cared about other things aside from intelligence. What I
value harms no one else in any case.

All I want is that all-important ability to do what many
other people on this planet can do. The ability to, within
reason and some acceptable limitations, do "anything I
put my mind to".

Considering this is something billions of people seem capable
of, I just don't see how it's too much to ask. I realize not everyone's
a rocket scientist and i'm not expecting to be one either. It would just
be nice to go back to college/uni and be able to pass all my classes
with decent grades, ( including math and science ones.....i'd be happy
if I could get through college algebra and statistics and probability...
nevermind calculus or something) get a BA/BS, and then worry about
grad school and/or a career.

Call me crazy...but none of this sounds like an unreasonable or
megalomanical expectation to me. Billions of people take it
COMPLETELY for granted....including countless people in this group
who complain about not being able to get a girlfriend or something
when they just got a PhD in Astrophysics. I'm not begrudging these
people for this, obviously having a girlfriend is something they value
and I couldn't care less frankly. It's just not something i've EVER valued
so long as i'm not stupid enough (and i've made that mistake before
and got my heart broken because of it) to get involved in a romantic/
sexual relationship in the first place. I never actually miss not having a
girlfriend. When it's out of sight....it's out of mind....so to speak.

I'd glady trade places which such people anyday...life-long virginity
would be the most blessed thing in the universe to me so long as I
could have their mathematical skills, long-term memory ability,
technical skills, musical talent, etc....Even just two of these things
would suffice for Christ's sake!! !

Todesking wrote

Sure I could. I could get an algebra credit at just about any
online program at a college around here. I wouldn't want to
go that route though because math is the one thing i'd be very
reluctant to attempt outside of actual classroom environment. I've
taken online and independent studies before when I was in college
and most of them were fine for me. But I need all the help I can get
when it comes to math. I need to attend class, take notes and maybe
record the lectures when it comes to math. I might need tutoring and
extra time on exams too.

Why do you need me to inspire you to get a degree anyway?
For your own sake, if it's something you really want to do, I
wouldn't wait for me or anyone else to inspire you. Just do
it. I personally see no reason that you can't no matter how
serious your own learning problems are. I remember you saying
in another thread that your IQ tested pretty high compared to your
co-workers. You were in the army too so i'm almost certain you took
the ASVAB.

Don't ever give up on yourself and don't wait for anyone else
to succeed at college before you decide to go if it's something
you really want to do. While I can't honestly say I have much hope
for myself, at least I have SOME. That is....I could at least give it my
all and hope for the best while fully expecting the worst. If I just
decide to sit here for the rest of my life and do nothing, then i'm
guaranteed to fail ofcourse. If you need help...get it. Accomodations,
tutoring, math labs, etc....are available at many colleges. Especially
for those with learning disabilities of any kind. There was a 78 y/o
RETIRED female math professor who was kind enough to tutor me
at the community college I went to. Well....I was an a** and I gave
up quickly as soon as it became frustrating, so she didn't do me any
good, but that was my fault. I'm not going to make the same mistake
again though. I'll stick it out with the math this time even if it kills
me.

So don't let anyone tell you there's any shame in community
colleges either. From my experience, there's alot of good and
dedicated educators at community colleges who truly have a
passion for teaching and their students. Many will go well out
of their way to help you in anyway they can. Some of the finest
and most noble human beings i've ever met in my life were my
professors at the community college I went to. I miss them very
much actually and if I had my druthers, i'd spend my entire life
on a college/university campus.


There doesn't seem to be all that many people with AS who
have learning/memory problems as severe as mine seem to
be in any case. Needless to say...I have no way of knowing if
you're one of them. But trust me....AS or not...there's alot of
people with serious learning and memory problems who
somehow, by hook or by crook, manage to get BA/BS degrees
and beyond. So if it's inspiration you're looking for, you could
fine some in this very group since there are SOME Aspies (and
people with other spectrum disorders) who do have significant
learning and/or memory problems. While I won't mention any
names, there's one member of this group who has been trying
to get a BA/BS for the past 20 years. He had to take intro algebra
FIVE TIMES before he finally passed it and now he's attempting to
pass some more advanced math course (don't remember which
one.....probably intermediate algebra but he may have passed
that by now...idk.)

Heck....I only took intro algebra twice and I dropped it both times.
Then I foolishly believed there was no way i'd ever be able to pass it
and I opted for course substitutions. I was eligible for them because I
do have a documented learning disability which manifests itself in deficits
with higher math. That in itself is hardly all THAT unusual for people with
NVLD/AS. I was never officially Dx-ed with AS....but I was told I fit the
general criteria for the NVLD syndrome. NVLD is not a formally recognized
Dx, so I was officially Dx-ed with LD-NOS or Mathematics Disorder
depending on the particular neuropsychological evaluation.

Anyway....if you need further inspiration...try this guy on for size:

"dr. rick hughes says:

nvld has been a thorn in my side for years, flunked geometry, any science class, but teachers passed me because I was a great basketball player, still get lost in traffic, can’t fix anythingt mechanical, can’t find my car in a parking lot, it’s a pain…was lucky I was taught mnemonic devices which got me a PhD in psychology…have dedicated my life to teaching others these memory stratgies…a professor who liked Jerry Lucas’ book, THE MEMORY BOOK, simplified the strategies for me, I have assessed many kids with nvld, they had better get in a job that’s verbal, many flunk out and are miserable, even though they are bright…I still cry when I read about people with nvld working in a low pay job that doesn’t fit…I would drive 100 miles or more to help someone who’s struggling"


Which REMINDS ME .....I need to get this book he's talking about.



Here's another remarkable person who has achieved FAR MORE than most
probably ever thought he could. He has achieved alot more than plenty of
of people (myself included) with above-average IQ scores. He has Down
syndrome, so i'm pretty darn sure his own IQ scores are way lower than
either yours or mine. While there are a few rare people with DS who score
within the average range (or even better in some extremely rare cases) on
IQ tests, I don't think he's one of them based upon everything i've read
about him:

http://www.sujeet.com/





Sounds like you may have some issues with short-term/working memory, but I can't
be certain. I don't seem to have those particular problems myself, but my own memory
problems may be far more severe and debilitating than your own at least in terms of my
academic skills. I believe my own memory deficits involve long-term memory and these
would be difficult, if not impossible, to determine via the standard neuropsychological
tests of memory. I've taken plenty of memory tests before on my neuropsych evals and
alot of these supposedly measure long-term memory. NONE of them indicated that I have
ANY problems with my memory at all...either long-term or short-term. But if you read the
article I linked to in my OP.....you would see that the conventional memory tests (like WMS)
may be very limited in terms of what they can determine about an individual's LONG-TERM
memory. All I can say is that these long-term memory impairments seem very, very, real to
me and they have for many years now. I just lack any objective evidence for them, that's all.
I HOPE i've exaggerated them. I mean after all....some pseudoneurological/somatoform "memory
problems" would likely be easier to resolve than ones with a genuine neurological basis.

But no matter what....i'm going to give the degree a chance. I'd just like to find out more about
my brain before I do if that's at all possible. If it's not.....i'll still go back to college in January
anyway and try to conquer my courses with every fiber of my being.

My interests are all over the place. I am interested in psychology, philosophy, religion/spirituality, (even though i'm an atheist and an anti-theist), literature,
science, history, politics, anthropology, sociology, etc.....

I want to achieve a "golden mean" here though...so to speak. I want to choose
a major that would present a challenge for me, (not TOO MUCH of a challenge
mind you, like physics or something. That's not to say I ultimately couldn't handle
physics...I really don't know for certain. But i'd have WAY too many math/science
classes to make up and the math alone might take me at least two years), be
something i'm interested in and something I could make a career out of. It's
going to be a tough decision, but have the rest of the summer to think about
it at least as i'm not even planning to start attending classes until January.


I'm not so sure my learning problems aren't insurmountable...but I certainly hope
they're not. Depending on what I finally decide to major in, I might not want to
put off the math for very long. And anything involving math WOULD BE the most
challenging coursework for me and for my own self-esteem, I desperately need
the challenge and I need to overcome it. I'm not ashamed to seek out assistance
in math if I need it (which is something I didn't do much of during my last stint
in college over ten years ago) and with (or maybe even without) assistance, i'm
cautiously optimistic that I can manage to pass math courses up to the college
algebra level at least. Trig and geometry are what I dread the most. My visual-
spatial skills/non-verbal reasoning is for the birds and Trig/geometry involves little
else but said reasoning.

I have no idea what your diagnosis is or should be, but from your posts, you sound pretty intelligent to me. You definitely do not sound mentally ret*d to me........