Friends

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This is a big topic and one that's discussed often here, I know.

I'd like to share what I consider an epiphany about friendship. After a lifetime of struggling - not knowing who my friends are, being betrayed, having messed up boundaries, etc, I realized a big, big part of the friend issue is truth and honesty. And I realized that in general, those two things are in short supply for NT people.

NTs will quickly talk bad about someone behind their back and smile and act like they just love that person to their face. Aspies generally will not.

On a regular basis some NT will tell me something absolutely awful about someone else - and swear me to secrecy. I hate that - just hate it. I take oaths and promises VERY seriously and when bound to one I tend to stick with it. So here's the NT person saying nasty things, they have me sworn that I won't tell they said them, and then they smile and laugh and act loving and friendly to the person they said the awful things about.

I can't deal with the injustice of that.

In general I think Aspie people tell the truth and miss many of the subtleties that come with knowing when to lie, when to smile and pretend, all of those political things. I don't think it's possible to be friends with NTs unless you lie and know how to play those games. I've watched this all of my life - they vent about how stupid the person is, how much they hate this person, how they're dodging this person and hope they can avoid them, and then they get it all out of their system and they are nice to the person's face, so overall they have "remained friends" with that person.

Does anyone know what I'm saying here or is that muddy to follow?

If they could not or did not vent all that hatred out, it would stay inside them and build up and finally one day they'd tell the TRUTH to the person and that person would hate them and they would no longer be friends.

So instead they vent it to others and play the phoney game to the person's face. That's the only way to stay "friends" on the surface. And it's almost all just surface stuff anyway.

Who needs all of that? I say what I believe right to your face. I am almost never rude, mean or cruel about it. I don't build up to a point of exploding and then get all freaked out and furious, but I will tell you the truth at the time it's relevant. It doesn't mean I don't like you, in fact I believe we're friends and that's why we talk honestly to each other and feel free to be open and don't talk bad about each other behind the other's back. I think that way - but I have decades of research to prove that NTs don't feel that way.

They want to be lied to (while they say that they don't) and if you can't manage to lie to them, you can't be their "friend".

This is one of the reasons I cant work in an office setting (I actually dont work at all anymore) because that happens a lot and it drives me nuts. Its just one of those games that certain people seem to enjoy and its hard to juggle. I typically cant keep my mouth shut and I usually regret it. I worked in an infertility office in the lab drawing blood. Most of the people I worked with talked crap about everyone and then was their "friend". They would ask me to go do things with them outside of work and I would always make up excuses. One day finally blurted out that they were not my friends, the were my coworkers. This was very true to me and I hate lying but I never did live that one down. Its hard navigating though it all....and Im glad I have limited access to those types of people. Its stressful and hurtful to hear and to see.

Absolutely - it's a big part of why I can't work in an office setting anymore either. It was emotionally and physically draining. Everyday just wore on me with the fake junk you have to constantly remember in order to appear functional around these phoney people. I was ill so much of the time.

I went from doctor visits several times each month with one illness after another, to NO visits at all for the past 6 years since I left the office.

Now I have acquaintances and some 'friends' that I've met online and gotten to know better (not in person) but I find the same sort of behavior even with online friends. They write me things privately that badmouth others and then are lovey and happy and friendly to those people in public (on a common message board or on Facebook). It's the same game, just different setting.

I'm thinking now that it's just normal behavior for NTs and if you don't lie and behave in a fake manner, you can't be "friends" with them.

Yes. I know exactly what you are talking about.

And I know of this office thing as well. I did work in an office once...for a short time, and the women constantly bad mouthed eachother behind eachothers backs and dwelt on petty issues like who left the copier on.

There is a skit by a Canadian comedy show called the Kids in the Hall called "Secretaries" which I love because I think it's so well done and epitomizes the stereotypical office environment.

On the subject of honesty, yes, I do believe people with AS are far more honest.

I must have been told at some point in my life never to lie, and I adhered to this rigorously even at my own expense because I had been told this was the right thing to do.

Yet, when I was about 8, a family member, for some reason, decided to ask me if I thought she looked fat. Well, it was a silly question because she was quite fat actually, but she asked me, and so I answered honestly, and she broke down in tears and I was yelled at by my parents (who told me never to lie) and sent to my room.

They tell you not to lie and then they admonish you for not when it doesn't suit them.

They make rules and then they get upset with you for following them even though they would abandon you and leave you to face the consequences should you not follow them and get caught.

We simply are less corrupted by power.

Earlier today when I saw this phoney thing happening I decided to write to my 'friend' privately. I put the term in a quote because we know very little about one another.

This was a case of her complaining to me many times about how much she didn't like this other person and was avoiding her all of the time and the other person wouldn't take a hint to leave her alone, things like that. Today I read where she's publicly gushing about how they're such wonderful and close friends and I'm shocked.

I asked her (made sure it was private) if something had happened - had they met or been able to work out their issues or something that made them now close friends?

I wanted to ask why she was so two faced and phoney but seriously, I went over the email 3 times and corrected and corrected it so it was very simple and very nice and no accusations of any kind and very politically correct.

She responded that her mother had always told her to "be kind to others" and she suddenly "felt sorry" for this other person so she was "kindly" letting her believe she was a friend.

Now I'm just more confused. This explanation is an attempt by her to look "kind" and generous, even charitable. But it's not. It's mean and two faced.

THIS is the way that NTs maintain friendships.

I absolutely would NOT want her to be calling herself my friend. If I were to find out any of what she says or thinks about me to others, I would be very hurt so why does she go through this charade? Who really is it helping?

I decided to forget it - nevermind - and just shot off a quick reply with something like "well that was very kind of you" and shook my head. She wrote back a gushy note about how glad she is that I understand and how she considers me one of her closest friends and hugs and all this other silly stuff. (we are next to strangers, so even that statement is so ridiculous it's insane)

What does this little experiment show me? When I accidentally became as phoney and fake as she is, and stated something I don't even believe, she's suddenly my best friend. So this is truly the way to have friends - be sickeningly fake, lie to everyone's face and they'll be your friend.

i don't think NTs define "lying" the same was as someone with AS.

i don't get it either, and have spent my whole life struggling to understand it and hating it.
we speak different languages, and have different priorities. to an NT, soothing someone else emotionally counts as the truth. to an aspie, truth is the truth.

i'm very proud of this. it's horrifying to learn it's because of a neurological disorder, instead of my strength and integrity as a person. seriously - i had no idea anyone else was so troubled by this stuff until i came here. i think it's a great strength and a fantastic trait. NTs should be jealous of us .. this is a deficit?? it's great. the world needs more of it.

TRUTH.

I agree.

And the love of truth has gotten me into SO MUCH TROUBLE in the world!

The world hates the truth. Society hates the truth. It's simple as that. Lie and create illusions or you're seen as suspect.

Yes the backbiting game really sucks. I don't know how common it is among NTs......certainly if it happens in any of the groups I'm in, I see it as a problem, and the best groups I've been in have agreed with me on that. Mosttly it's happened at work where I have no control over the people I associate with, but even there I've known a lot of people saying they don't like it that way....I suspect that there's a pretty large body of NTs who would be on our side.

I can understand the pressure to do it. Somebody pisses you off, you aren't good at giving criticism and they aren't good at receiving it....the only way to vent the frustration is to voice those criticisms to somebody else - they can't directly help but at least it won't cause a heavy confrontation. If you're angry then you want to let it out, and it's well known that words spoken in anger tend to exagerrate the truth....once you've let it out you'll feel better and then you'll take a more mellow view.

If it's the boss annoying you, the power he holds over you may force you to pull your punches while he's around. It's very common in my workplace for the staff to damn the management to each other but I've never seen any of them spill their guts to the bosses in the same way. I can't blame them, and I even join in (it seems to be a good way of bonding with them) but I'd very much prefer it to be the starting point for confronting the management, instead of just acting as a pressure valve to stop us all bursting.

But I don't wish to excuse the droves of sociopaths out there who positively enjoy back stabbing their peers. There's more going on there that simply letting off steam. I think there's always a gap between what they'll say about you and what they'll say to you.....maybe the touchstone is whether or not they're worried about it.

Years ago I worked at the front desk of a hotel and the manager loved to play those little two faced games. Whenever he tried to involve me in the us side of us vs them I would just not react; I didn't know what I was supposed to do. After a while he became very hostile to me and someone else I worked with who I was friendly with told me the manager was trying to "freeze me out." I showed up on time and did my job but I failed in my duties as 14 year old NT school girl.

I feel lucky to have two good friends, who treat me, with respect.

Truth will get you into far more trouble than lies ever will. I promise you.

You can be friends with NTs just pick them carefully. Not all NTs are quite so deceptive. Sometimes they get mad at a friend and need to vent about it to another friend. That doesn't mean that they don't care about the person they are mad at. In time it usually blows over. Right now I've got two friends doing this. They truly do love each other but each has her own annoying traits. Right now one of them is mad at the other and we don't quite know why. I have been friendly to both since whatever is going on has nothing to do with me, but the mad friend is now mad at me for being nice to her. These are not young ladies either. They are both over 50. I think the mad one has undiagnosed ADHD, so she can be impusive and gets in trouble for disorganization. We all kind of know, it's pretty obvious to everybody but her. I've mentioned it, but she didn't take it seriously enough to do anything and I'm not pushing it.

In time they will make up and things will be nice. In the meantime I'm going to be nice to both of them and forgive them for whatever is going on as I know they will forgive me if I do something stupid and offensive to them.

Real friends know your faults and get mad at you. But when you really need them they are there for you. If a real crisis came along these two would work together to get through it.

Kiley

What I have problems with is the gossip. I hate how catty people can get even when they're twice my age. I think it's rediculous and unneccesary to gossip. As for the fakey games, I perfected that in twelfth grade (when I was actually ahead of the game for once!) so that doesn't bother me. But I just really hate gossip. Why can't everyone just get along, especially when you have no choice but to work with them?

Thanks Earthmom for starting this topic. It's really relevant to how I've been feeling lately, and probably why I've retreated into WP again. I don't understand people. They're so inconsistent. I can't wrap my head around such inconsistent behavior. Why people say one thing, but do another, or say one thing, but mean another.

One of the situations that I'm in where there's so much gossip, and lies is my youngest son's classroom. He's in an autistic only classroom with a teacher and about 4 paras. You'd think these people would be professionals. Not! Going in there is like going to high school again. The teacher is male, so you'd think it would stop there, but he's the biggest perpetrator of them all. He tells me all of the gossip, then turns around the next time we talk about a particular subject, and tells me another completely different story. Makes no sense! Basically, his opinion fluctuates between who he is liking that week, rather than on the details that matter, like who is actually doing their job. They all get together and gang up on one at a time. They never air it all out in the open, though. It's all hush hush gossip, and I really don't want to hear anymore of their drama. I don't want to be involved in it, either. I find it irritating that he drags me into it.

I don't really have any friends, except on-line friends who are also on the spectrum, and I suspect that the reason for this is because I haven't any idea as to how to be truthful, and ethical, but at the same time smooth the social fabric when wrinkles occur. I guess that I am better than I used to be, when I was younger. I am at least polite now, and realize that there are some things that are better off not said. I used to feel that if it were the truth, then it was okay to say it, especially if I were asked for an opinion. Now I realize that maybe I ought to word things nicer, and leave out some things.

I agree Aspies are more honest I was debating on telling an old friend the dreams i've had of her lately my cousin suggested maybe not the one where I shoot/kill this friend or the romantic hand holding but I told this friend anyway and was TRUTHFUL! I fealt so releieved to get that off my chest to this friend. I was truthful and honest and didn't hold back IMO one of my behavior faults. This friend also did a paper on Autism in College so I brought up my AS and she understands it's a private matter so that was nice to actually tell that to her (her sister/my sisters friend already knew from my sister telling her) So it was nice to tell someone of my AS. It seems she understands and said she'd Google it and I linked her to WP. I think it's cool she did a paper on Autism. I wish more NT's were honest sadly that's not the case.

I work in an office setting, and I really like it. The only thing is I hate it when people socialize in the restroom. But I never heard anyone talking about anyone else behind their back, actually. At school they did all the time, though. As well as at my other jobs.