If you are not sure if you have Aspergers or not, explain.

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I think first we should take the DSM-IV criteria step by step in each post. now I guess the criteria have been updated a bit? perhaps go into Tony Attwod's criteria if you want in addition to the DSM-IV. then talk about why you think you do /don't have asperger's from your own point of view.

well this complicates matters:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... i_76558499

Does DSM-IV Asperger's Disorder Exist?
Journal of Abnormal Child Psychology, June, 2001 by Susan Dickerson Mayes, Susan L. Calhoun, Dana L. Crites


Susan Dickerson Mayes [1,2]

Susan L. Calhoun [1]

Dana L. Crites [1]

DSM-IV criteria for autistic and Asperger's disorders were applied to 157 children with clinical diagnoses of autism or Asperger's disorder. All children met the DSM-IV criteria for autistic disorder and none met criteria for Asperger's disorder, including those with normal intelligence and absence of early speech delay. The reason for this was that all children had social impairment and restricted and repetitive behavior and interests (required DSM-IV symptoms for both autistic and Asperger's disorders) and all had a DSM-IV communication impairment (which then qualified them for a diagnosis of autistic disorder and not Asperger's disorder). Communication problems exhibited by all children were impaired conversational speech or repetitive, stereotyped, or idiosyncratic speech (or both), which are DSM-IV criteria for autism. These findings are consistent with those of 5 other studies and indicate that a DSM-IV diagnosis of Asperger's disorder is unlikely or impossible.


The DSM-IV criteria for Asperger's


http://www.behavenet.com/capsules/disor ... perger.htm

Diagnostic criteria for 299.80 Asperger's Disorder
(cautionary statement)

A. Qualitative impairment in social interaction, as manifested by at least two of the following:
(1) marked impairment in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviors such as eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression, body postures, and gestures to regulate social interaction
(2) failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to developmental level
(3) a lack of spontaneous seeking to share enjoyment, interests, or achievements with other people (e.g., by a lack of showing, bringing, or pointing out objects of interest to other people)
(4) lack of social or emotional reciprocity

B. Restricted repetitive and stereotyped patterns of behavior, interests, and activities, as manifested by at least one of the following:
(1) encompassing preoccupation with one or more stereotyped and restricted patterns of interest that is abnormal either in intensity or focus
(2) apparently inflexible adherence to specific, nonfunctional routines or rituals
(3) stereotyped and repetitive motor mannerisms (e.g., hand or finger flapping or twisting, or complex whole-body movements)
(4) persistent preoccupation with parts of objects

C. The disturbance causes clinically significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

D. There is no clinically significant general delay in language (e.g., single words used by age 2 years, communicative phrases used by age 3 years).

E. There is no clinically significant delay in cognitive development or in the development of age-appropriate self-help skills, adaptive behavior (other than in social interaction), and curiosity about the environment in childhood.

F. Criteria are not met for another specific Pervasive Developmental Disorder or Schizophrenia.

I'm sorry, but if a post isn't under 20 or 30 words- I can't stay focused long enough to care what it says.
On top of that are all those big, fancy words and acronyms I know not the first thing about.

However, based on your title alone: I was very recently diagnosed but am flirting with the notion of casting it aside and resuming my normal life as though I never got diagnosed. I fit many of the criteria except the militant, anti-everyone-else-not-like-me-and-complete-distrust-for-"NTs" mentality.
That is why I don't aspire to be associated with the "aspie" community any more than the "NT" community.

Sorry, can't stay focused.



Seriously, I understand your point NQ, but the OP has a pointed question, and if you don't care about the point, why do you even bother to post your own thoughts on a subject far off from the author's intent? There is no talk of AS vs. NT, or any "community" bullsh*t here, just an open discussion on the actual "disorder" itself.

Oi... so basically, the proponents of AS who dug up Asperger's work in the first place pushed to get it made into a distinct diagnosis, only to be kind of dissatisfied with the DSM-IV's standard of it, as well as the subsequent confusion and mucking up of standards, and now they're saying it isn't distinct from HFA at all. oopsie

Well frankly, if this actually pans out, I would think:

Cons
a) We lose the name/label
b) Have to slightly change the forum name

Pros
a) Less confusion and more universally recognized standards make an "official diagnosis" seem like less of a crapshoot.
b) It might actually be easier for high-functioning but still impaired people to get assistance this way.
c) We ditch the odd name.

As usual, anyone who's an adult doesn't really get represented, but at least they're kind of caving to the idea that maybe theses diagnoses don't need to be written in blood and can be fairly subjective to each individual. I think the ingrained, popular, more severe prevailing idea of "classic" autism might have caused this backlash of overestimating the difference you see in someone who needs lifelong support and someone who may just need intervention to become independent. (...and "successful") It might be that an imperceptibly small tweak in development is what translates into that difference in end result. Who knows? Not me.

It's kind of ironic: they wanted more concrete, legitimate standards, but they only really managed to make the diagnoses' definitions more muddled.

Last edited by CMaximus on 01 Dec 2008, 2:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

I took my one and ONLY cue from the title. I am simply not smart enough to understand 1/10th of the original post. Still, that doesn't mean I can't participate.

well I'll do me. I'm 28 as you can see. grew up and went to college in MD. live in Oc, CA at the moment.

probably a pretty mild case if I have it. NLD is also a candidate. I know about the relationship between AS and NLD. I'm currently in the process of selecting a psych/neuropsych do do a diagnosis. I posted a thread on it.

DSM-IV:

A.
1. Not sure if I suffer at all from the eye contact issue now but my mom said I have a little trouble with it. I remember I had trouble with it when I was a minor, guessing birth-early elem yrs at least.
facial expression can often be neutral. I wonder if I've trained myself to do this. I remember thinking it was a good idea to do this. also used to keep my mouth open too much. As far as posture, I don't keep my back straight and learn forward when I walk.
2. I don't think my peer relationships aren't appropriate for my developmental level.
Though i remember it being easier to get along with those younger than me. Also I seem to have an easy time playing with my now 5 yr old nephew. Also perhaps kids in general. I can play like a kid.

3) not sure
4) seems right. emotions aren't strong

B.
1. don't think my life was generally characterized by this stuff. I do have some interests now but not obsessions. or maybe they are mild ones? at least bmore. I have repeatedly emailed my friends about baltimore (where I was born and whose metro area I grew up in; the man in my sig is from bmore and was very famous), urbanist stuff. I know they get bored though by it. I stopped with the bmore stuff after one of them told me she doesn't always like i. these interests have only come up after college.

2. don't think so but not comfortable assessing.

3. I guess this is stimming. I notice when sitting i shake my right foot i think a lot. does putting up loose glasses repeatedly count?

4. don't think so.

C. not sure. coordination/being slow can't be good for jobs.


D. not sure. I did have a speech delay i think. not sure if it was clinically significant. I've seen different accounts on if an aspie can be late-talking.

E. well not that I know of.



I do act immature . I do look younger than I am I thtink. receding hairline though. still can't grow a full beard/mustache. coordination problems. lack of empathy. didn't feel much when my dog died, toher stuff. don't seem to fit in. feel like I have social problems. it seems I do have executive function problems. not sure if I have the sensitivity to light touch etc. sensory problems? I remember at a customer svc job I mentioned things being mixed up in my head or something like that. bad multitasker. seems like I have a bad short-term memory. think long-term good. meltdowns not sure. have had at least 1 extreme one. one recenlty with my sister. seemed to take hours to be able to function normally. got mad at her at a restaurant. It seems I've had hugging problems and perhaps still do. I think I'm sensitive to people speaking in a loud/angry voice to me (at least my sister). she can be bitchy though.
social pleasantries don't always like, do not always observe them but I think I do ok. It seems like since college I've been big on logic and rationality. never had a significant other. lol I'm Indian. maybe I could have had at least one in HS but just declined. in fact not highly interested in one. interest has started to develop last few yrs. may have primary anorgasmia which could be a factor. plus the indian culture thing kinda. but it wasn't really a high priority. i can do ok hanging by myself but long for friends to hang out with in person sometimes. luckily still in touch by phone/chat/email with 3 college friends. I have said inappropriate things. Lol I think I blurted out at age 12! to a guest Why doo you eat pizza with your hands?. other more serious stuff too.

I took some kind of psych test MCMI. lied on a few q's. mainly truthful though.
I think avoidant was the bigges. schizoid, schizotypal, anxiety, think 1 more. 1 wasn't 100% for any of these. I think 90 for avoidant or maybe it weas anxity.



well here's an IM session I had with someone who might be an aspie :

vivaciousvivo (10:05:22 PM) : as far as why I think I may have aspergers or nld
vivaciousvivo (10:15:12 PM) : http://www.nldontario.org/articles/NLDvsAS.html, http://www.nldontheweb.org/Dinklage_1.htm http://www.weirdnotstupid.com/asvsnld.asp the 3rd link is the shortest, the links talk about the difference between as and nld
vivaciousvivo (12:59:57 AM) : i have quite a gap between verBAL AND PERFORMANCE iq which is a prominent feature of ndl, i think aspergers too ; when i took it in '91 it was 125 viq vs 63 piq; i took an iq test recently at a comm college ; gap around 40 pts; I have impaired visual-spatial skills which is a prominent feature of nld
vivaciousvivo (1:14:59 AM) : from my psych eval: the very significant difference between verbal and performance iq is a clear indication or right cerebra impairment. I have developmental delay . by 5 yrs old I was in a special ed preschool where I rec'd speech and language therapy,physical therapy, and occupational therapy. had difficulty wit ability to receive, interpret, and respond successfully to sensory information teacher described me as behaving somewhat less appropriately for a child my age. I sometimes showed attention and concentration problems with overactivity and needed a lot of attention. I fidgeted and seemed confused or in a fog frequently. my parents agree that I often have attention and concentration problems and can't get thoughts off my mind. i daydream frequently.
vivaciousvivo (1:17:39 AM) : findings: while i don't appear to have a learning disability and show ssuperior mental ability verbally, I have obvious visual-motor integration and visual-spatial probems
vivaciousvivo (1:22:36 AM) : very significant difference between verbal and performance iq of more than 4 std deviations is a clear indication of right cerebral impairment. Howe ver, I've done an amazine job of compensaing for these deficitys and excels academically as shown by the academic achievement scores reported below. from my neuropsych eval: the results show that I likely had pervasive cerebral damage of the righ hemisphere and mostor/sensory strip damage bilaterally. This accounts for his severe fine motor problems and difficulty with problems involving spatial relationships
vivaciousvivo (1:24:18 AM) : i used to have the eye contact problem i think perhaps still to a small degree but i don't see it
vivaciousvivo (1:25:34 AM) : http://web.syr.edu/~rjkopp/data/dsm_criteria.html dsm iv criteria
vivaciousvivo (1:26:12 AM) : i can see the special interest stuff perhaps applying to me now; don't seem to think it has been a consistent part of my life
vivaciousvivo (1:27:25 AM) : i think i have stimming
vivaciousvivo (1:28:07 AM) : just sitting here right now im shaking my right foot
vivaciousvivo (1:28:52 AM) : pretty sure my speech delay is 2a
vivaciousvivo (1:29:44 AM) : 1 b and d seem most familiar
vivaciousvivo (1:30:00 AM) : i can be non emotional at times
vivaciousvivo (1:30:08 AM) : lacking empathy
An unknown failure occurred.
vivaciousvivo (1:31:39 AM) : took the aq test: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/aqtest.html
vivaciousvivo (1:32:14 AM) : took twice got 23 and 25 i think which i read on wrongplanet may be mild aspie
vivaciousvivo (1:32:28 AM) : fun fact simon baron cohen is sacha's cousin
vivaciousvivo (1:35:29 AM) : last thing I was referred at the request of my mom and teacher because of a suspected learning disaability in areas requiring organizational skills and spatial relationship ailities.
vivaciousvivo (1:35:37 AM) : oh and btw you can be nld and as

lol 1/2 the post is just the dsm-iv criteria. just pretend i didn't include that. anway yeah i'm not fond of long posts. lol now I wonder who'll read my 2nd? please somebody. also now that I think of it perhaps ildly obsessed w/ as and nld. also send my friends too many annoying emails about that stuff

First of all, I'm pleased that double blind tests on the AS criteria are being carried out. These double blind tests show that the criteria as they are at the moment are not reliable enough to give consistent diagnoses and therefore need refining/rewriting.

More studies like this need to be done.

I've actually done this for years.
Some of my very good friends have been so called "NT". I always thought that I was an individual who thought like other people until I was told otherwise. These NT people were really friendly and nice to me even though I wasn't great at socialising. Such people do exist. Also nasty NT people exist. They are people.

I was taught to fear autistics and hate myself for being "broken" over the years, which doesn't help anybody. Now I don't know who I really am or what I'm meant to do. Some professionals actually hated me for my label and thought I was "broken".

That's why I hate this word "disorder". I am not "disordered". I like the term ASCs (Autistic Spectrum Conditions) better. It's not perfect but at least it's not offensive to my and other capable people's humanity. Until this word "disorder" is changed, I will have to keep "not sure if I have it or not" on my profile because I'm not "disordered": I'm a human being. I will keep this setting on my profile until there is an accurate empirical, measurable, physical test for AS. Until then, I'll never really be sure if what the professionals said about me to my parents was correct or not.

Years ago I was informally assessed in a different country and I can't seem to get rid of the label. I was told to try and get rid of the label for years because it was jeopardising my chances.

I am convinced that something is going on though. Inherited character traits and inherited poor coordination. Some people have very systematic brains. Some girls with highly systematic have had real difficulties socialising. I'm not imaging that, I've met these people.

I have never been able to initiate conversation easily and have always had an aversion from people. I have had definite issues working and communicating in groups, but because I'm female, this goes unnoticed and no one knows what to do with me or how to help me.

Something's genetics going on, I accept that, but I believe that the current criteria and testing are far too nebulous and woolly to really be useful. The criteria and whole image of the condition need serious revamping. Some of these criteria are open to interpretation by the doctor. The vague statement "qualitative" is especially unhelpful. "Qualitative" relative to what?

I don't think that they current criteria are fair: they phrase people's character traits in a negative way. They made my self esteem sink just by reading them. I felt less of a human being and more like a complete failure. Most of my family would be stuck at the five year old stage on this so called child development scale and they all managed to survive and get jobs. Perhaps, shock horror, some people do develop at different rates.

Why can't there be just a simple quantitative physiological test that everyone can take so that there's no confusion?

I'd be in complete denial if I've said that I've never met any of the criteria would. I share experiences with people on this site and 70% of that can't be pure coincidence. I'm actually very frightened with how my experiences match others on here sometimes.

I've discovered that there's little help once you get the diagnosis anyway, little legal or medical support available for adults. Surely if people are "diagnosed" with things they should be offered appropriate help and support?

I am going to have to muddle through on my own if I don't want to get stigmatised or denied career opportunities.

I think that all kids should be taught about how to socialise from an early age, so that they don't have to go through the pain and confusion that I went through. Some kids really do need assistance with learning social skills, actually so do the rest of their classmates.

i don't understand the anti nt-mentality either. of course im prob a very mmild aspie. perhaps if i was aspie to a greater degree, i'd have more life problems, more serious school bullyingg (id id have a bit) etc. I think I could get into low-level nt bashing; but not really serious.

are you a rapper?

anyway. me:

DSM-IV-
A.- (1), (2), (3) & (4)
B.- (1), (3) & sometimes (4) (as a child, not so much anymore)
C.- check
D.- check
E.- check
F.- check

so, as you can see, I meet all the criteria. been diagnosed with ADHD, my new psych thinks I've been misdiagnosed and that I actually am AS. can't afford formal diagnosis though.

the reason why I'm listed as "not sure" is that (in my humble opinion) such thing as "have AS- undiagnosed" is a bit misleading... it just *not precise*.

not to mention that a lot of people here have voiced disapprovement about self-diagnosed people on youtube etc giving AS bad name. I resepct that, therefore I'm not making any claims.

I've done this mentally, but I've never tried it in "print."

Some background:

39
Self-diagnosed at 31 (but I have an appointment with a neuro).
PhD (more on this later)
Married, one child.

A. Qualitative impairment in social interaction, as manifested by at least two of the following:
(1) marked impairment in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviors such as eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression, body postures, and gestures to regulate social interaction

I've been called on this quite recently...my HR person noted it during our session; my dean has told me to "look at me." Other body gestures and postures read by colleagues as "arrogant" or "rude."

(2) failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to developmental level

I've always had this problem. One psychiatrist told me (in 2001) that I was "peerless."

(3) a lack of spontaneous seeking to share enjoyment, interests, or achievements with other people (e.g., by a lack of showing, bringing, or pointing out objects of interest to other people)

I have had trouble with this. My mother recently visited, and it took me two days to hug her.

(4) lack of social or emotional reciprocity

I get complimented on my clothing--I never know how to respond.

B. Restricted repetitive and stereotyped patterns of behavior, interests, and activities, as manifested by at least one of the following:
(1) encompassing preoccupation with one or more stereotyped and restricted patterns of interest that is abnormal either in intensity or focus

I got a PhD in television history. I took a life-long obsession and have tried to make a career out of it. I think a lot of people in academia have diagnosable issues.

(2) apparently inflexible adherence to specific, nonfunctional routines or rituals

I have very subtle routines at this point in my life.

(3) stereotyped and repetitive motor mannerisms (e.g., hand or finger flapping or twisting, or complex whole-body movements)

None of these that I'm aware of.

(4) persistent preoccupation with parts of objects

Does playing with a paper clip in a variety of manners while your boss is talking to you count?

C. The disturbance causes clinically significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

I lost my last position to a "vague" reason--no one could pin it down (and no, they didn't know about my suspected AS). My social awkwardness is currently impairing my socially and occupationally at my current position (see above).

D. There is no clinically significant general delay in language (e.g., single words used by age 2 years, communicative phrases used by age 3 years).

No real delay.

E. There is no clinically significant delay in cognitive development or in the development of age-appropriate self-help skills, adaptive behavior (other than in social interaction), and curiosity about the environment in childhood.

No, was considered "advanced" and would have been promoted a grade except for my social impairment, which was already noted (2nd grade).

F. Criteria are not met for another specific Pervasive Developmental Disorder or Schizophrenia.

The psych I saw told me he couldn't diagnose me (due to insurance and location, he was an ADD/ADHD specialist), and told me he could drug me, but it would "kill" who I am.

SO, long story short, I have very mild AS (scored 33 on the Baron-Cohen, or a 42 if you believe I can put myself into my 10 year-old self).

Good luck....

I think the question the article asks has to do with criteria F

So, looking at the diagnostic criteria for Asperger's is not enough for a DSM-IV diagnosis. You have to look at the other PDDs and Schizophrenia and rule those out.

So, the question is, are there people who don't fit the criteria for another PDD (nor Schizophrenia), but do fit the diagnostic criteria for Asperger's.

I've several times here seen people say the difference between autism and Asperger's, as far as diagnostic criteria, is a speech delay or not. But the diagnostic criteria for autism do not require a speech delay.

Basically, the kids in the study don't meet the diagnostic criteria for Asperger's because they all meet the diagnostic criteria for autism, and that along rules out an Asperger's diagnosis.

A) 1, 2, 3, 4
B) 1, 3
C) Check
D) Check
E) Check
F) Check

Um...just responding to the title of the thread...

I can sometimes feel sceptical due to the informality of my assesment...maybe i should not have taken/take it too seriously, and there may be the shadow of a doubt that I do qualify as an aspie.
I can seem quite socially dynamic at times when surrounded by my small group of very artsy/socially akward/AS-ish peers....i can forget sometimes what it is like to be outside the bubble I am in...and so sometimes I will have my doubts...only to be reminded when I am in unfamiliar company and the giant invisble wall between me and them magically pops up.

I agree that the status of "have Aspergers Undiagnosed" is not very precise...

I am pretty sure I meet enough of the DSM criteria to say that I am definitely on the spectrum...and an AS expert said she thought I was an aspie...I have a bit of physical evidence, like my toe-walking and digit ratio and whatnot...but I guess that until I shell out that 2 grand for a real diagnosis, there will always be that we shadow of doubt.

Qualitative impairment in social interaction, as manifested by at least two of the following:
(1) marked impairment in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviors such as eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression, body postures, and gestures to regulate social interaction - some, but not 'qualitative impairment
(2) failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to developmental level - peer relationships were possible, sometimes odd. Gradually had fewer friends (if I had any at all), but not failure
(3) a lack of spontaneous seeking to share enjoyment, interests, or achievements with other people (e.g., by a lack of showing, bringing, or pointing out objects of interest to other people) - not to my parents. I don't know about my peers
(4) lack of social or emotional reciprocity - I'm not entirely sure what this means

B. Restricted repetitive and stereotyped patterns of behavior, interests, and activities, as manifested by at least one of the following:
(1) encompassing preoccupation with one or more stereotyped and restricted patterns of interest that is abnormal either in intensity or focus - not really. I have interests which are unusual for my age and gender (heraldry, buses etc.) but it is not encompassing
(2) apparently inflexible adherence to specific, nonfunctional routines or rituals - no, although I will become upset if certain things are not usual, e.g. having to sit in a different seat at the table at a meal time might distress me a lot
(3) stereotyped and repetitive motor mannerisms (e.g., hand or finger flapping or twisting, or complex whole-body movements) - Tourette syndrome, but no real stims as such
(4) persistent preoccupation with parts of objects - not that I know of

C. The disturbance causes clinically significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning. - no, it is minor, except for the fact I have virtually no friends and hardly ever go out, even though I want these things. Socialising takes a lot of energy. So does making and keeping friends.

D. There is no clinically significant general delay in language (e.g., single words used by age 2 years, communicative phrases used by age 3 years). - correct. I was reading when I was still in my pram.

E. There is no clinically significant delay in cognitive development or in the development of age-appropriate self-help skills, adaptive behavior (other than in social interaction), and curiosity about the environment in childhood. - correct, as far as I know, apart from wetting the bed for too long

F. Criteria are not met for another specific Pervasive Developmental Disorder or Schizophrenia. - correct as far as I know

I do have difficulties, but what I do have is mild and is not a 'qualitative impairment'.

It does seem like many make out the whole NT/ASD delineation to be a whole lot more absolute than it probably is. Many seem to conveniently forget that having an ASD doesn't necessarily make you a saint, or immune to being just as conceited, self-absorbed and thoughtless as you might accuse others of being. Granted, the world is an unforgiving place for anyone who's at any kind of pervasive disadvantage, but you shouldn't generallize/blame people because of hurt feelings. That ain't right, or very constructive.