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serenity
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17 Jun 2010, 1:17 pm

Seems like an easy question, but I'm having a hard time answering it. I hear some people in the autism community say that you can't stereotype specific behaviors by saying all autistic individuals will struggle with this or that specific behavior, or aspect. IMO, everyone on the autism spectrum has trouble in one way or another with socializing. I feel that's the core deficit of any ASD, and in order to be dxed you need to meet that requirement, but I know there's others that disagree with that. I also feel that it is a difference, as well as a disability, but never just a difference. I know there's many that disagree with that, too. So, what is ASD to you? How do you define it? Is there any one symptom, or characteristic that's universal among all people diagnosed with ASD?

Also, I intentionally left it at ASD instead of just AS so as not to muddy up the definition anymore, as well as not to exclude many of the individuals here that are diagnosed with classic autism. I'm curious about the universal aspects of the whole spectrum, as I feel all the little sub categories are more distracting than helpful.



MrXxx
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17 Jun 2010, 1:30 pm

"Universal" aspects?

You'd have to construct a very broad and not too definitive answer to that question to be truly "accurate."

"ASD" (Autistic Spectrum Disorder - I'm being very specific here because I have also seen "ASD" used to mean "Asperger's Syndrome Disorder" though that is inaccurate).

ASD is a VERY broad spectrum. So broad, it's very difficult to construct descriptions that "satisfy" everyone who asks this question. Been there, done that. So many times, and seen that it constantly leads to more questions and often, challenges.

My advice? Don't ask questions like this on forums. Get a book. Get two books. Read. Read more. And more. It's far too complicated an issue for any forum post to do it justice.

Just my two cents based on four years of discussing it on forums. I'm "bowing out" now.


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Willard
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17 Jun 2010, 6:06 pm

The spectrum is not all that broad - not as far as traits and criteria go. I feel 'spectrum' refers to functionality. If the traits and criteria were not relatively limited, it would be impossible to diagnose. We'd all just be the generic 'weirdos' people are always treating us as, or everybody with a slight difference would be considered Autistic and there would be no need for any other diagnosis.

I think the problems reading nonverbal signals are the core of the disorder, but I think social anxiety almost goes hand-in-hand with that, unless you're just oblivious to the fact that you're socially inept. If you know you suck at something, how can you not feel anxiety when you're forced to do it? If you aren't worried about making an @ss of yourself, boy are you gonna make an @ss of yourself! But I suppose that, and the depression and the stimming and the meltdowns and the non-social behavior and the need for solitude all stem directly from the social ineptness. I guess the sensory hypersensitivity would be a separate issue. Maybe not. But it does seem that whatever other Autistic traits one has, how many from column A as opposed to column B - while that may vary from one person to the other, they all are behaviors resultant from the social disorder itself. I shall have to ponder this for a while... :duh:

I wonder if its not simply processing glitches that actually cause the poor social recognition in the first place...or are processing problems a separate thing from the social stuff? I'm starting to get a headache...

Its been a frequent source of amusement to me here that I often see posts questioning whether or not the post-er might not actually have AS, because they don't have this or that Autistic trait, when the very language they use to make the claim demonstrates the exact quality they're denying they have. It would be like me saying "My AS must be extremely mild, because I never talk too much about a single subject, hijack a discussion or come off as an arrogant know-it-all." :roll: :oops:



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17 Jun 2010, 7:03 pm

Really good question. My personal favorite answer is "nobody knows."

There are so many problems at so many levels about how things are currently defined.

1) It's officially defined by behavior, as interpreted by people who don't have it (which leads to "lacks empathy, lacks imagination, stimming is purposeless, forced eye contact helps learning, skin shocks are ok because they don't really process the pain, and on and on). Until I'd seen a lot of first-person descriptions, I couldn't relate to the 'professional literature' at all (that was back in the 90's, admittedly).

2) Trying to figure out what they "core" problems seems a tough chicken-and-egg problem. Are social issues to core, or is it sensory (or cognitive, or emotional) differences that lead to social problems? If the world were set up differently, which things would cease to be problems, and which wouldn't?

3) Getting away from individualized, medicalized definitions, is the experience of "wow, it's creeping me out how much sense you people make. It's like you've been following me around taking notes on my life and then wrote about it..." IOW, the there seems to be something recognizable in the experiences, and they way they're described (and it's interesting how this seems to cut across functional levels and the current system of categorization).

4) ...ugh, brain overload, and I can tell this post is going to get too long already...


Some essays that I find interesting about the question "what is autism?"

Jim Sinclair wrote this (http://www.autreat.com/jim.html)

Quote:
The DSM IV diagnostic criteria for autism include the following:

I. A. Qualitative impairment in social interaction

B. Qualitative impairment in communication

C. Restricted repetitive and stereotyped patterns of behavior, interests and activities

II. Onset is prior to age three.

What do those mean from an autistic point of view? Some examples:

I. A. Difficulty understanding social situations; lack of awareness of social conventions; lack of interest in social conventions even if aware of them; little or no responsiveness to external approval or disapproval; inability or disinclination to relate to large numbers of people, but deep, meaningful relationships with a few people who are able to form individualized, non-prefabricated connections with the autistic person

B. Difficulty with some combination of content or mechanics of language use, including grammar, vocabulary, fluency of responding, and/or identifying significant features of what people are talking about; difficulty interpreting nonverbal cues such as facial expression, body language, tone of voice; absent or abnormal production of nonverbal cues; special problems with interpreting and expressing emotional signals

C. Intense focus of attention on topics of special interest; lack of awareness or interest in topics that are of interest to most people; difficulty remaining oriented when environment or routine is changed

II. Having been autistic since birth (or at the very latest, late infancy), the person does perceive and experience a "different world" than the one most people live in--and being *native* to that world, the person has little identification with non-autistic standards of normality.



Ballastexistenz had blog post touching on this recently:

http://ballastexistenz.autistics.org/?p=634

Quote:
What I just told someone who didn’t match current autism stereotypes.
Posted by ballastexistenz

It’s not really that you contradict what autism is, it’s that descriptions of autistic people came about like this:

Kanner saw a bunch of people and grouped them together. He observed some things about them. Some of the observations were accurate. Some were more conclusions than true observations. Then he came to conclusions based on both types of observations. Many of his conclusions were false. (Note: Most of Kanner’s patients would today have a high chance of being diagnosed as AS and all but maybe one or two fit at least one definition of high functioning. Several went on to college. There are many modern myths about who these people were.)

The next person came along and put more people into the category of autistic. These people included people who appeared like Kanners patients appeared, people who were like Kanners patients were, people who appeared like Kanners conclusions, and people who were like Kanners conclusions.

This has been going onin many iterations for generations. And since 1980 it’s been happening to Asperger’s patients and conclusions too. (His patients were roughly the same as Kanner’s, but he drew different conclusions.)

This means that people who get called autistic are an incredibly diverse group of people and that virtually nobody matches the conclusions. And yet those who either match the conclusions, think they match the conclusions, pretend they match the conclusions, or may or may not match but other people can force fit them to the conclusions — those people will get called more typical or more autistic. Even though they are neither.

So knowing all that I’m never surprised when people don’t match the conclusions. The conclusions come from generations of faulty observations, faulty logic, and faulty science. And then no matter what the conclusions are, people who match them or who think they match them or can be said to match them by others, suddenly start getting diagnosed more. It’s a disturbingly tangled thing and I wish more people noticed.

POST CONTINUES (click here)


Some other essays entitled "What is Autism?" at http://www.autreat.com/definitions.html



MrXxx
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17 Jun 2010, 7:33 pm

Willard wrote:
The spectrum is not all that broad -


I think it's a matter of perspective. It isn't broad in comparison what might be called the "NT spectrum," but to me it seems very broad when looking around from within. The part that's really interesting to me is that from a universal perspective (for lack of a better term), ASD's are very narrow, yet during personal experience I've listened to many NT's draw conclusions based on an even narrower ideal of what ASD encompasses than ASD really does encompass.

Generally that's why I normally start off by telling people it's "very" broad, because I think the likelihood, especially if they are NT, is that they're probably going to form some quick and dirty picture in their minds that if used as a means of determining whether they think someone falls on the spectrum, will miss a huge number of people who are on the spectrum because they don't realize how wide the spectrum really is.

Maybe wide or broad are not good terms. Probably a better way to put it is to picture a rainbow. How many colors are there in it? The answer of course, is "all of them." Now look only at the purples and violet families of color, nothing else. How many colors are there in that band? The answer is, not all, but just as many as before, because both are infinite in variations.

And don't forget the "ultra-violets." They're there, but you can't see them.

Identifying Autism is a lot like identifying the purples and violets in a rainbow. Some are very easy to see, others are harder to see. At one end of the spectrum, it begins to blend into other colors. At the other end, it begins to almost vanish, but it's there. Compared to the entire rainbow, it's not that wide.

Best analogy I can think of right now.


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17 Jun 2010, 7:54 pm

It means the opposite of being a sheep, or a cookie cutter, inspired by mainstream society.


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serenity
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21 Jul 2010, 5:28 pm

I'm sorry that I made this thread, and never returned. It's been one of those things where I have lots to say on a subject, but it's all swimming around in my head in abstract form, far from the written word. I hate when that happens.

Thank you, Apple_in_my_Eye for such a well written, informative post.

Willard wrote:
I wonder if its not simply processing glitches that actually cause the poor social recognition in the first place...or are processing problems a separate thing from the social stuff? I'm starting to get a headache...


This would be my best guess, ATM. I think that ASD is a processing issue. That also might be why that it seems to vary from person to person. The processing problems are different, but all can be associated with ASD. Which makes me wonder why in the world that the current criteria does not have anything about sensory issues in it? Why is that? Is there anyone diagnosed with ASD *not* have sensory issues in one form or another? I think that every meltdown that I've ever had has had something to do with my sensory system being overloaded.

I think it is the same with the social, and communication issues with ASD. It's all about how it's processed in the brain that causes the glitches. Sometimes, I see the nonverbal cues, but I don't know what to do about it, while other times my brain doesn't process the information at all. The more overloaded my sensory system is, the less able I am to communicate.

Processing issues seem to me to be quite universal to the whole spectrum, or at least I feel it's a possibility.