Aspergers Neuro-Scans

Post Reply New Topic

I exhibit all the symptoms of Aspergers Syndrome, yet if I mention it no one believes it for a bit and tells me to not diagnose myself. But when I look to get diagnosed I see there is no real factual way to determine this. And that a lot of things can overlap and the person can learn to be normal; which I don't understand because doesn't everyone have to learn what is normal to various degrees? When is it enough to just say someone decided not to learn to be normal or has a Neuro logical hard-wiring difference? It seems a lot more clear-cut in regards to autism, but Aspergers Syndrome seems like more of an educated guess that could actually be quite wrong in many cases, since all the evidence relies on a more basic empirical study of things.

Is there any way to prove with fact using Neuro-Scans that someone's mind is wired as an Aspergers mind as opposed to an NT mind?

I'm just asking because there doesn't seem to be any way to really prove Aspergers exists as a, kind of, genetic affect or of a biological effect other than the fact that two people with Aspergers have a higher chance of creating an autistic or Aspergers child. But then again some of it might be an effect of the environment of little NT interaction the child may have or something more complex having to do with genetics that has been overlooked entirely.

I think it's bad to have something based on what a certain medical doctor feels you are, making their conclusions based on what they believe, know, think they know, etc.

Is it possible that someone can exhibit the same problems as an Aspergers person yet have totally different causes? This is what bothers me. How does one with Aspergers know whether their brain didn't develop in certain places, or developed poorly in certain places in response to negative stimuli when growing up?

This bothers me. I feel their should be some kind of factual proof that we can see and always evaluate as true, like with the laws of physics, rather than a consensus based on some observation as a way to explain the differences of someone from what is considered proper or normal.

this is perhaps the most Aspie thing I have ever heard. Welcome to WP and welcome home.

Merle

Last edited by sinsboldly on 28 Mar 2009, 11:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

OK, let's begin there, what are the symptoms according to you?



When an autistic person learns to behave normally, the neurological symptoms of autism are still there inside and are easily noticed by the trained eye. This is why i think neurological symptoms should be used to diagnose instead of behaviors. Let me illustrate:

Before learning to act normal:
Neurologically: Hipersensibility to touch.
Behavior: Person complains when touched.

After learning to pretend:
Neurologically: Still hipersensible to touch.
Behavior: Person doesn't complain when touched.


Before learning to act normal:
Neurologically: Doesn't have anything to say to others.
Behavior: Person is silent.

After learning to pretend:
Neurologically: Still doesn't have anything to say to others.
Behavior: Person talks of any stupid thing they see or feel.


As you can see if you diagnose by behaviors the pretenders will seem cured, but if you diagnose by neurology they are still autistic. More specifically, i think diagnosis should be based on those symptoms that cannot be masked even by the pretenders, like monotone voice, motor clumsiness, lower brain temperature.




Are you sure about that? Why do you call it a fact?




Like i said at the beggining, it all comes down to what you consider symptoms of autism/Aspergers. If you consider it to be a set of odd behaviors then yes, there are many people who have those same behaviors but with different neurological causes. Under this view anybody can point to some odd behavior they have and claim to be autistic, and that is the view supported by the majority in this board, tho they are wary of acknowledging it directly.




It bothers me too and I am working hard on ways to diagnose it based on the neurological differences i've mentioned. The problem is that if I succed a lot of people who thought they were autistic are gonna be left out of the diagnosis, for autism has become a political term. Gone are the days when Hans Asperger identified the thing scientifically, as years have gone by the requirements to be diagnosed have been lowered and now it's pretty much a political party for those who don't follow the herd, it's pretty much something you choose to be, it's lost it's science.

I made a thread about it not long ago, about how the people who have the diagnosis today have nothing in common with each other anymore. But there was a real condition that started it all, one that has very well defined neurological symptoms and can be confirmed medically, and i estimate about 2% of the people in my city to have it, so the prevalence is even higher than that of currently diagnosed autism.

I sometimes feel this original condition should be given a new name and let autism be just a label, but who am i to make such decisions.

Meanwhile the years and millions of dollars in scientific research has lead nowhere and will keep leading nowhere because every research has used a mixed sample of real autistic and missdiagnosed people. That, and that alone, is the reason why no progress has been made in understanding autism and no cure has been found (or so the masses think )

So far, no one has developed a reliable diagnostic based on MRI or PET scans of the brain. That does not mean there isn't one. It just has not yet been found.

The diagnosis for AS is largely based on behavioral characteristics.

ruveyn

AS might even have multiple causes, kind of the way aphasia or prosopagnosia can have multiple causes...

Dang, I could probably write a short book describing everything, but I think I would have to pay someone to read it and give me an honest discussion about it lol.

I can just go over a couple things briefly I guess. First, I'm a hypersensitive person. Noises, touches, the feeling of my clothes all really have an effect on me. I've gone outside and stood around shaking and being cold because I didn't want to wear uncomfortable pants or sweater.

When I see words I sometimes without helping it try and determine where the exact center of a wall of text is. I start analyzing it mathematically until I come to an agreement on where the center is.

Sometimes with numbers I try to see the number in my head as a function of multiples; and I don't exactly willingly do this. It bothers me if I try to ignore it.

When I'm talking to people if I look at their eyes too long I end up staring and starting to feel uncomfortable not knowing when I should look away. This usually gives me a neck twitch where my head kind of shakes and so I look away to keep people from seeing this and then look back when I've decided it has passed. And I tend not to know when to say something. I have to wait for a good amount of pause to occur before I can just say what I wanted to. But even then I'm not sure how to say what I want to so sometimes I just stand there and then walk away from people.

People tell me I act girly sometimes and that I am "Mr. Quiet" and tend to be rude to people because I don't like to ask how they are doing and chit-chat with them for a few minutes like normal people; this has gotten me into lots of trouble, as well as fights for appearing as such a jerk to other people. When I have to chit-chat with someone the first thing that pops in my head is "f**k! I don't want to talk to you and have to play pretend." or "s**t! Please leave me alone."

I can't ever stop thinking. I have conversations where I question every thought and feeling I have. When people are talking to me I'm analyzing everything that they are doing and saying and I can't really help it. The only way I can be around people without doing this is to space out, if at all possible.

I have mental breakdowns where I just go ape-shit and people never understand why and I think that has confused me as well that know one seems to ever really understand how I'm feeling.

Man, I could go on and on, but I have to remind myself that everyone doesn't visit this forum to learn and read about only me. I should stop here.

and umm...


Sorry, I don't really know if it is truly scientific fact, but I read that this was the case and kind of took it in as true. Is it not really true? I didn't know.




That seems to describe me. Although I don't think I necessarily say any stupid thing I feel or see. I tend to rant and just say something...well actually on second thought, the people I'm talking to probably see me as talking of any stupid thing I'm seeing, thinking, or feeling. I can't ask someone how they are doing or do chit-chat. I can only say hi and whatever else that needs to be said to complete some task that involves them. And most of the time I look away at something and wait for them to say something.

Waste of time, your descriptions are biased because you are focusing on the things about you that seem aspie. I learned the hard way not to diagnose people by their autobiographies, unless they've never heard about autism.

I'd rather have you measure your temperature a few times and average it and post a sample of your speach to test for monotone voice.

People with ASDs can learn coping behaviors that might mask their condition to some extent in some circumstances. They are no more non-autistic for this than a parrot is human when it mimics human speech.

It is no more clear cut in autism, and in fact the same flaws in assessment and diagnosis apply in practice to many more conditions than you appear to be considering. When did your doctor ever conduct a test that could positively identify a pathogen before diagnosing you with a cold or flue? Diagnosing colds and flues is just educated guess work, and evidently sometimes physicians get it wrong when they diagnose those conditions too.

fMRI monitoring of audio processing speed is probably the most distinctive biological marker found to date, that can be measured/observed by using "neuro-scans".

The same distinctive audio processing and visual acuity markers as that research indicates occur in Kanner autism also, according to the same research, occur in Aspergers Syndrome. There is no more biological evidence for Kanner type autism than for Asperger type autism; those biological markers we have found for one, apply to the other. It's entirely unclear what if any practical significance is represented by the nosological division between Kanner type autism and Asperger type autism. And that is before physician subjectivity gets involved.

Parental/environmental emotional/cognitive stimulus as a causal factor has most certainly not been overlooked; it's simply been found not to stand up to close empirical study and analysis.


And yet it is very common in clinical practical.

People can be misdiagnosed, but this is true of the flue and the common cold. Misdiagnosis can even occur when the diagnosis is based on lab test results. If you are expecting an error free clinical assessment method, you will be disappointed

Due to the rudimentary nature of knowledge/technology in this area, assessment and diagnosis is currently based on proxy behavior symptoms. Those symptoms are not the condition, they are "proxy indicators" like sneezing in the instance of....a cold.....or a flue....or hay fever....or something else.

Research is beginning to reveal apparently reliable biological markers that offer some promise of better serving diagnosis efforts than the current behavior-reports/observation-interpretation methodology (a methodology that is actually rather common in clinical practice and certainly does not apply only to ASDs).

single post

Last edited by DrizzleMan on 29 Mar 2009, 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Yeah, there's imaging studies that are fairly accurate in picking up ASD "brains". fMRI and PET scans are the two IIRC.

It's just that the behavioural manifestations are so obvious in most cases, there's no need to pursue further studies [that are expensive].

ImMe - Good point - How can one be sure that Asperger's exists if Asperger's doesn't show up on a brain scan? Is Asperger's really only an imaginary box or imaginary pigeonhole invented by someone? This is doubly true with Asperger's since there is no medicine used to treat Asperger's vs another area such as ADHD where it is known that a few of those with ADHD (not all of those with ADHD) respond to a central nervous system stimulant - alerting agent which temporarily reduces (not a cure) some ADHD symptoms.

Oh yes, this is so true. I was misdiagnosed once with mononucleosis (tech made an error reading the test) when I actually had a ruptured appendix (note: this is a bad error to make). Both of these are diagnosed using objective test methods- a blood test in the case of mono, and a CT scan in the case of a ruptured appendix. It took three and a half days after initially being hospitalized to sort it all out. And that is after days at home with the pediatrician's office telling my mom I just had the flu, and that I was "old enough to know I needed to eat." Hah! I'd like to see her eat when her abdomen and intestines are full of pus and infection. Sorry- off-topic there (*little* bit of anger about that). But yes, no guarantees in life, even with objective tests.

Why be proper, when I can be eccentric, asks the Kink of WP?