What is the difference between AS and NVLD?

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I mean, aside from the fact that NVLD is not an ASD.
Because, I think I may have that, AND/or not Aspergers.

There have been many thread about this, the differences are somewhat difficult to tell in some individuals.

http://www.nldontario.org/articles/NLDvsAS.html
http://www.nldline.com/

It seems that people with NLD do not have a specific interest and show a lack of spatial skills and maths skills which AS people do not always show. However, one can have more than one disorder at once, making the differences even less visible.

Dyslexia, Dyspraxia or Dyscalculia are compatible with NLD or AS (and have similar characteristics), one can also have both AS and NLD, so you can guess that making a diagnosis is not easy.

As said in the first link, AS tend to be good at math, work in computer field or scientific fields, they are also visual learners while NLDs need verbal instructions and are good at writing or teaching. However, I know an Aspie who is a writer and had difficulties in maths before reading a book written by Daniel Tammet and there seems to be a lot of us interested in Linguistics.

Having read the articles, I don't see any major difference, myself. If someone put a gun to my head and told me to make a choice, I guess I would have to abandon my AS diagnosis and switch to NLD now. I mean I am terrible at math and I'm a writer.

However, I think that the human mind is so complex and diverse that it's usually a mistake to try to pigeon-hole people into one disorder, exclusive of another -- everyone is different! What is important is not what exact label you want to give yourself so much as how much you learn about yourself and then how much you can grow and improve after gaining that knowledge.

I'd go with any disorder label if it wre any help, but it took me 46 years to finally get Asperger's and it changed my life for the better, so I'll just happily stuck with it.

This is purely a media stereotype and does not appear in the DSM.

Exactly, as I said : I know someone who is obviously AS and she does poorly at math but is a good writer.

The sites explains that you can see obviously the differences but most people actually think that NLD is a milder form of AS in most cases (or AS + Dyspraxia ?). Furthermore, according to some websites, some NLD have specific interests and routines...

I do not know either which diagnosis I would fit the best because both seems similar.

IDK, I saw a lot of observations and assumptions in that article rather than fact but I do think a lot of it rings true. I'm actually very surprised I wasn't labeled with NVLD in school but I don't know if it was very well known in the mid 90s and I was out of Special Ed and was assumed to have no substantial learning difficulties aside from my ADHD diagnosis by 1996.

I fit in much better with the NVLD profile as far as being a VERY auditory/verbal learner goes BUT I have "less emotions" like they say an Aspie would. I don't have trouble expressing feelings like they say the NVLDer does, I simply have less of them.

I'm also not *quite* sure why they think verbal/auditory learners or people with excellent wordsmith skills wouldn't be successful in careers dealing with computers. You REALLY don't need math skills for a lot of these careers, there are areas like programming and the like in which you would be much better off having them but I think the field actually invites different types of thinkers and that verbal/auditory learners can also be very logical/methodical thinkers as well. I know I score as being mostly "left brained" on most of the tests I've taken and I am SH*T for most kinds of math xD

I think I agree with the people here who say that these are just different manifestations of the same disorder and that there is going to be a lot of gray area for many people.

My own experience has led me to conclude that NLD is... wait, this forum has rules about language and talking about certain waste products, doesn't it?

I was diagnosed with NLD initially. It doesn't MATTER whether you're more like one stereotype or the other; even if you ARE one of the case studies in the literature, AVOID the NLD community. Avoid. Avoid. I cannot state this strongly enough, especially while keeping it appropriate for any children who might be reading. My experience with the NLD community-- the literature, the people, the conferences, the internet information-- was toxic, eroding at my already fragile self-confidence and shoehorning me into a box I did not fit. They were unwilling to consider that someone with NLD (I don't care if it's even real, or whether I have it; I ignore it nowadays and grit my teeth when I scroll past the stickied thread about it here) could be anything like me. I was accused of lying when I said I found pictures helpful when learning. I was told that I couldn't be visual, that I had to be incapable of visualization. I was told that I had problems with fine motor skills. (I draw. I've been told I do it well. For the sake of any reactionary parents reading this, I will not tell you where to shove your stereotypes.) I was told my brain was broken and I lacked the ability to do what normal people could. All the available literature was depressing and painted a picture of certain failure and loneliness and never being more than a glorified tape recorder that eats. The only things they got right are that I'm bad at math and unathletic.

Even books that talked about both were less than useful.

The diagnosis of Asperger's was a blessing. It meant services (...which didn't help), it meant understanding, it meant having the chance to learn to cope rather than revel in what I can't do (admittedly, it was at an NLD conference that I learned how to fake eye contact), it meant meeting other people like me (the NLD community is composed of people who are actually quite unlike me), it meant learning about my strengths and learning about myself as different rather than inferior. It meant that people stopped trying to force me to fit a mold I don't fit any better than the NT mold. Instead of-- gasp, you can't really be an artist... yeah. You can be an artist. It's okay to suck at math, that's just a stereotype. You can think one of a few different ways (some will even go so far as to admit that thinking style varies as much as appearance), so it's fine if you think in pictures, it's fine if you think in words.

In conclusion: NLD BAD, ASPERGER'S GOOD.

*shrug*

I can put check marks next to the things that are NVLD only and not AS.

I can put check marks next to the things that are AS only and not NVLD.

Which am I? At some point, I think people are just nitpicking and splitting hairs where hairs don't need to be split. One can be both AS and NVLD or one and not the other, and, as someone else speculated, NVLD sounds suspiciously like the female presentation of AS. Besides, I think it's pretty obvious that things like ADHD, learning disabilities, sensory issues, clumsiness, et. al. tend to "cluster" with AS and autism, which suggests to me that "autism" is primarily an issue of a person's ability to process certain types of information.

I suspect some people just want to keep AS as the "math/science geek" stereotype because it's more "romantic."

--XFG

Just as everyone is always claiming that autistic children and aspies (oh, and dyslexics, and dyspraxics, and dyscalculics, and bipolar, etc) are more intelligent than everyone else (it is not true, some of them are not even rational and are very arrogant because of that, plus IQ is not accurate because there are many forms or intelligence and while someone may be brilliant in a domain, they will do poorly in another one... and everyone who has poor social skills lacks a form of intelligence).
I guess they say that to either feel better about having Autism or any kind of disorder or feel better about the fact that their children have it because they feel like they have failed at something (true, at least, for my aunt).

We are always talking about the brilliant people who were autistic savants or had a disorder so that people may feel better about this condition (because making them become arrogant *insert insult here* will not help the disorder to be accepted) but there are actually brilliant people who have an average IQ, who have no disorder and many kind of intelligence.

Though, it is true that one may enjoy a kind of intelligence in some people but not another (I like "intelligent people" meaning : rational logical people who are not delusional but I tend not to like social people because they tend not to display the other kind of intelligence, though it truly depend on the individual).

Sometimes, it is just as if Autism was either "children who will never speak and be violent" or "savantism".

When I was in high school, a friend of mine who was dyslexic told us that "all dyslexic were good at math and could not learn English because it was so different from French". I met more dyslexic people in literary studies than in others, one of my grandmother speaks English perfectly and it was her first language when she was a child, the other became the best reader of her classes because she taught her another way to do it... others will not improve their skills or may have another disorder...

So, yes... stereotyping is bad.

Just like this conclusion :


Your point of view is biased because you had a bad experience with the community (which does not mean that every NLD will be like that I think there are some here) and was misdiagnosed.
I met someone who was dyspraxic just like me and the "dyspraxic community" told him he could not be dyspraxic because he did not display the most common characteristics. (I heard that too, because I could find my balance when using a surfboard)
And I could say that Asperger's community is full of *insert insult here* because I found a forum where everyone was a delusional egotist. Yet, no one is like that on WP.
It actually seems that in most communities, there are people who want to prove that they are a more severe case of x than the others and think they should be the reference for a diagnosis but in reality, most people do not display all the characteristic or display them differently.




I do both, YAY I must be unique. [Joke]



I do agree, and since there are many professionals who won't diagnosed AS in female we can easily think that some female can have both or only AS and still be diagnosed with NVLD.



Yet, are every aspies like that ? And what is "having less emotions" ? How could we truly know since we are not inside other people's mind. Some people may just confuse their emotions or not be truly aware of them, thus they may think they feel more emotions than other people, some people also tend to create emotions in their mind.

I see a difference. I fit some of the NLD stuff, like thinking verbally(but i think visually some too), but not the overall picture of it.. It seems like with NLDers their issues with socializing and stuff come primarily from their deficit with visual and spatial skills... Like not being able to read expressions because of it. With me i don't think my social deficits have much to do with that. My issues aren't caused by not being able to read expressions, it's the social part in itself i don't understand(which also causes trouble with reading expressions, but i can remember what different expression are supposed to mean. it's not a visual issue). The social problem difference to me looks like this(this is just based on what i've read. correct me if i'm wrong if you know more about it): someone with just NLD has social issues caused primarily by their visual-thinking deficits. Someone with just AS has social issues caused by a social deficit in itself. Take out the trouble with reading body language and expressions, and they should still have normal social abilities. Someone with AS or HFA doesn't have normal social abilities to start with, even if you take out the trouble with reading body language and expressions(which aren't necessarily even caused by visual-thinking deficits at all).

Plus, repetitive or obsessive thinking aren't part of NLD and they're a key part of AS.

So, yeah.. They seem like totally different things to me, they just happen to have some similar symptoms when it comes to having social issues so they can be hard to tell apart when you're just looking at behavior. And then they can definitely overlap and co-occur like other things such as ADHD.

Heh. I didn't notice that you quoted me before. I thought you were just replying to Filesgeek.

I was going by what they said in the article, about NVLDers still having "regular", or something to that effect, emotions, but Aspies having less.

I do have less emotions, I always have. I can tell because I don't react to things the way 97% of people around me do, unless they're all just faking it which is very possible.

I'm just not interested in emotion to a great extent, I suppose. I'm in a relatively good mod most of the time and I'm very humorous even though I can have a bit of a *flat* effect. It comes off as deadpan so it works.

That isn't to say I don't feel deeply about some things. I care about certain people more than I'll probably ever be able to show them but my main concern is information and thought., not socializing with ot trying to understand other people.

I understand, I tend to be like that (except for the "trying to understand other people because social structure is one of my theoretical interests), though I used to feel more emotions when I was adolescent (it seems normal with the hormonal changes), which is why I think some people tend to confuse their emotions or act impusively. There is also an emotional norm.
For example, when something bad happen in a country or a town, everyone must feel depressed for that, this is something I do not understand, it is socially acceptable but it does not seem to be a genuine feeling.

I tend to think most people exagerate or fake their emotions because people tend to lie in order to get something, but I could be wrong (my opinion is biased because I have trusted many people and they lied to me), they act impusively and generally do not control their emotion or reflect about them to determine their causes. I even think many people are lying to themselves about certain emotions (I have a friend who can create her feelings of "love" for someone, I actually tried and it works, you can make your brain believe a lot of things).

Perhaps I am wrong and assume wrongly that the people who are like me are the only ones who are honest about their emotions. I have to admit that there must be people who cannot control or understand their emotions since they have depression or any related condition (which, by the way, can be genetic, in a way, the brain create an emotion which would not exist without this condition but it does not change the fact that it exists, just as all disorders, it is just that it has a logical origin).
There are AS who enjoys socializing (perhaps not in the usual way) and exchanging informations and thoughts can be a form of socialazition. There are also AS who have depression, are bipolar, etc. This is strongly linked to having a lot of emotions I think.

But I really think that some emotions are just expected socially from people because of a norm (you know, sympathy, empathy, not being egotist though everyone is especially when they react to something by thinking "this could happen to me"), which is why people will point at you when you do not react properly to something and then reject or beat you even if this act is highly paradoxical.



I won't correct you because I do not know whether you are right or not, I have trouble interpreting their social impairment.
In both cases, it is linked to a mental disorder, the way your brain is wired, thus NLD would have no social issue without the main characteristics of NLD just as AS would not have any social issue without the main characteristics of AS.

(This argument was not logical because NLD have trouble reading body language and expression because they have NLD just as AS or HFA have trouble socializing because of their Autistic behaviour, therefore both an AS and a NLD will have a social deficit because of their disorder, they do not have normal social abilities).

In both cases, the social impairment is not delibarate, but it would be hard to tell why AS or NVLD have this disability since we can only observe the consequences (even the nonverbal communication understanding is a consequence of the wya your brain works, and both AS and NVLD display this characteristic.) It is true that most children with LFA do not respond to their name, tend to avoid eye contact (NVLDs do that too apparently), do not point things with their fingers and are absorbed in their activities, however it seems harder to tell with HFA and AS since some children seem pretty normal apart from a lack of social skills, strange behaviours (but most parents would say that children have strange behaviours, at least those I know) and perhaps uncommon interests.

By the way, there are similarities in the social impairment causes :





As you can see, there are similarities but many aspects of AS are not considered as being a characteristic of NVLD.
(http://www.nldontheweb.org/nldentryleve ... stics.html --> social impairment is described a little more here)

However, routines and stereotypies seem to be a trait of NVLD, though it is not necessary to be diagnosed with it.
In both cases, there are adults who seem to display less traits and to have less social issues besides their disorder. In both cases, the use of nonverbal communication and the specific codes people use during a conversation are misunderstood.
Clusminess is common in both disorders, though it is not an official characteristic of AS.
There are no language delay in both disorders.
Unusual sensual sensitivity is common in both.
Anxiety and Social Phobia common in both.

The main difference seems to be the "narrow interests" (though we could find NTs with narrow interests), but it seems that NVLD displays, at least, enough characteristics to be a part of the "Broader Autism Spectrum".
There is also the fact that NLVD do not understand reading but may teach themselves how to read pretty early, this characteristic is close to hyperlexia. Hyperlexic tend to be autist though all autist are not hyperlexic (only 15-20%), perhaps this condition is dominant in NVLD.

I can see differences :
-NVLD can occur after a brain injury, Autism cannot (but it is usually a disorder you are born with).
-Usually, NVLD are auditory learners while AS are visual learners.
-Both NVLD and AS tend to have a VIQ > PIQ (thoug some NVLD have no discrapency and some AS have a different profile) but NVLD can have mental retardation (HFA can also have that though).
-Routines, stereotypies or OCD are not a NVLD characteristic
-AS have narrow specific interests
-It seems that NLVD usually have social difficulties as they grow up rather than right from the start.

Perhaps the fact that 80% of AS are believed to have NVLD as well makes the differences between the two less clear, and since there is generally not a single person who can totally fit a stereotype, it is hard to tell in some cases which disorder they fit the best.

I, for example, would fit the AS characteristics more than the NLVD, though I do meet some of the NLVD characteristics, but I have been diagnosed with dyspraxia and dyspraxia ressembles NLVD... Someone who has more than one disorder will probably fit the description of a disorder which show more characteristics, and someone who has improved may fit another diagnosis.

I had more emotion as a teenager also and was much the same way as a child that I am now.

People do fake the emotions, some more than others and I can understand doing it some extent but certainly not the over-the-top way that some people do to get what they want. I can't imagine living that way or doing that on a daily basis, I would be physically ill.

I do "mirror' social norms and gestures to a certain extent, though. It doesn't come naturally to me but I know what I need to do to get by in society and make friends, and I enjoy socializing with certain types.

I think some Aspies do have less emotion but there are also autistics who are ruled by their emotions, so it's always a case by case scenario. In my case, (granted I have no confirmation on what exactly my *deal* is) the things that I feel deeply about are never at the forefront. I don't have a very deep range of emotions on a daily basis, my primary mode of functioning is always learning and trying to take in new information and ideas, but I do have a different way that I compartmentalize emotion, I guess. It's just more of a private thing and generally not something I do with other people. I experience emotion in music, mostly, which is really just another source of information for me but is the closest I can get to feeling like i "get' what other people get.

When I think about my family or close friends that I loved/cared about I feel something deep and I feel connected to them in my MIND, but when I'm actually around them I really don't. I LOVE being around them but i never feel like one of them.

So IDK, that was rambling on my part but I guess that's my experience with empathy/emotion issue.

I could be mistaken here, but I was under the impression that people with Non-Verbal Learning Disorder have trouble picking up non-verbal signals in social situations, like Aspies, but that they do not have some of the other traits associated with autism, like, for instance, special interests or stimming.

I don't think I feel any fewer emotions than anyone else, personally. (But then, I'm young, and I haven't actually asked anyone how much they feel.) And I agree, I'm quite biased, but I feel that it doesn't matter where you fit based on skills, because the NLD community is just as harmful to people who without a doubt fit the profile. It was just even worse for me because I definitely didn't fit, sort of like how public school's bad for anyone but sucked even worse for me.

I find the whole debate pointless, because the way people try to divide NLD and Asperger's is just... it's almost like if you had... oh, Neurotypical Syndrome over here, but then there's this other thing called Failure To Be A Loner Disability that consists of making a lot of eye contact and being really into sports. And the thing is, there's a pretty big overlap, so if you have FTBALD, it's a good bet you'd fit in with NTs (better than you fit in with people on the spectrum, anyway) and could learn from them. But at the same time, there are NTs who'd rather knit or do their hair. Doesn't make you less NT. I don't see why I should bother with trying to figure out which one I fit; I had a vastly higher VIQ than PIQ, math fails to click for me and I'm terrible at gross motor activities (plus, all the NLD literature I've read definitely mentioned special interests). But I'm quite visual and good at fine motor skills. But I don't straddle the gap; there is no gap. NLD is one possible way Asperger's can present (at least a lot of the time). They're both just described so badly that people who really think the right way to be included in a certain group are grouped with another. I certainly found more commonality with NLDers than with NTs.

It will seem that a lot of aspies are bad in math, maybe even the majority. http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt106205.html