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Apple_in_my_Eye
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17 Sep 2010, 7:12 pm

This is a long article, but there's a lot of interesting ideas/thoughts in it. I.e. is thought possible without language, does language actually displace certain other kinds of thought, how does a person without language think, and so on.

The person named "Ildefonso" was born profoundly deaf, but was not taught sign language as a child.

http://neuroanthropology.net/2010/07/21 ... -language/

"Life without Language"

Quote:
... In anthropology, Edward Sapir and Benjamin Whorf are frequently credited with bringing into sharp focus the role of language in shaping perception and cognition, although they arguably offered a less deterministic account of the relationship than some language-first philosophers (see our posts, Sapir-Whorf hypothesis is right… sort of? and Sapir-Whorf hypothesis was right… about adults, for more of a discussion of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis). Their approach suggests that language biases perception, affecting how people are capable of perceiving, making some ideas or even qualities of the phenomenal world, more or less difficult to perceive. Coupled with work like that of Hespos and Spelke, the work on language biasing perception suggests that pre-linguistic perception is actually more attuned to sensory discrimination that may later disappear if not buttressed by language; that is, the pre-linguistic conceptual world is perhaps more attuned to certain gradations, less likely to overlook intermediate or uncategorized sensations. ...


Quote:
... There are examples of communities of deaf people spontaneously inventing new sign languages, but the case of a profoundly deaf individual in a hearing community, isolated from other individuals struggling to communicate visually, would offer little opportunity for this kind of innovation (see, for example, the case of Nicaraguan Sign Language, discussed here and here). Deprived of communication and symbolic interaction, it’s unclear how a personal language could really develop the stability or systematicity it would need to become a true language (Wittgenstein, for example, says that the idea of a private language is incoherent). ...



Quote:
... In contrast to the absolute inability Idefenso had getting the idea of ‘idea,’ or his struggles with points in time, he clearly was capable of all sorts of tasks that suggest he was not mentally inert or completely vacant. He had survived into adulthood, crossed into the US, kept himself from being mowed down in traffic or starving to death. Moreover, he and other languageless individuals had apparently figured out ways to communicate without a shared language, which I find both phenomenally intriguing and difficult to even imagine (putting aside the definitional problem of distinguishing human communication from ‘language’ broadly construed).

Schaller highlights that learning language isolated Ildefonso from other languageless individuals. Schaller explains:
Quote:
The only thing he said, which I think is fascinating and raises more questions than answers, is that he used to be able to talk to his other languageless friends. They found each other over the years. He said to me, “I think differently. I can’t remember how I thought.” I think that’s phenomenal!


I agree with Schaller, and I suspect that Ildefonso might be suggesting a way in which certain cognitive skills and communicative channels had actually atrophied with the incursion of language into his life, or even become impossible once language had intruded upon them. Language was not simply an addition to his cognitive repertoire; it may have displaced or disrupted other forms of thought and interaction.

From the perspective of a language-saturated world this seems improbable; we tend to think of ourselves as cognitively complete, profoundly abled, without limit. But clearly Ildefonso and other languageless individuals had to find some way to compensate for their deficits, whether it was through mimetic thinking (which is one possibility) or through some other constellation of adaptations. This languageless cognition would not be simply prelinguistic, childlike thought because adult languageless individuals function much more adeptly than four-year-olds. But how this non-linguistic, adult cognition might operate, what it might include, is a bit of a mystery and seems fragile in the face of language learning. I don’t think it’s purely mimetic, even though imitation was Ildefonso’s strategy in social learning, because there are many situations in which there’s simply no role model to imitate. Likewise, we find other primates who are non-linguistic are often good problem solvers without imitating (or imitating much less adeptly than humans). ...



SuperApsie
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17 Sep 2010, 7:42 pm

Brilliant and puzzling

So language is not the only thing that separate us from apes?


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bee33
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17 Sep 2010, 7:59 pm

That's quite fascinating!

I'll admit I didn't read the article but only your quotes, but I was especially intrigued by this statement: "Their approach suggests that language biases perception, affecting how people are capable of perceiving, making some ideas or even qualities of the phenomenal world, more or less difficult to perceive."

It seems absolutely true to me that language biases perception. I grew up knowing three languages, and in each there are words or phrases that express concepts that don't exist in the other two. For instance, English uses two-word verbs (like get out, get over, put on... ) that Italian and Portuguese don't have. The combinations are almost childlike in their simplicity. English has always struck me as a simpler language than the Romance languages, and the way I tink in English is more direct.

I also studied art, and to me the bias is very strong toward a literal rather than visual understanding of an image. People will think, "this is a picture of a cow" rather than noticing the visual aspects of the image itself. And if there is no cow or other object they can name with words, most people are stumped and can't make sense of a visual image on its own at all. But it took me years of art school to unlearn that knee-jerk literal interpretation!

Anyway, I don't know if I've made any sense, but it's a great topic. Thanks for posting.



cyberscan
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17 Sep 2010, 8:12 pm

I think language can present a handicap in some cases. While I have language, it can be very difficult for me in many cases to understand it. I'm sort of in between full language and non language. However, I am always coming up with new way to do things.


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18 Sep 2010, 10:48 am

bee33 wrote:
That's quite fascinating!

I'll admit I didn't read the article but only your quotes, but I was especially intrigued by this statement: "Their approach suggests that language biases perception, affecting how people are capable of perceiving, making some ideas or even qualities of the phenomenal world, more or less difficult to perceive."

It seems absolutely true to me that language biases perception. I grew up knowing three languages, and in each there are words or phrases that express concepts that don't exist in the other two. For instance, English uses two-word verbs (like get out, get over, put on... ) that Italian and Portuguese don't have. The combinations are almost childlike in their simplicity. English has always struck me as a simpler language than the Romance languages, and the way I tink in English is more direct.

I also studied art, and to me the bias is very strong toward a literal rather than visual understanding of an image. People will think, "this is a picture of a cow" rather than noticing the visual aspects of the image itself. And if there is no cow or other object they can name with words, most people are stumped and can't make sense of a visual image on its own at all. But it took me years of art school to unlearn that knee-jerk literal interpretation!

Anyway, I don't know if I've made any sense, but it's a great topic. Thanks for posting.


To do the exploration further, try to read The Geography Of Time by Robert Levine. It tries to understand why such big differences between "north and south" exist and he takes the time, or the perception of it as the center of his study. It is very entertaining to read and with your knowledge of both worlds you will find it even more fascinating!

http://www.amazon.com/Geography-Time-Mi ... 0465026427

And of course language intervenes in the process


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18 Sep 2010, 1:07 pm

I have always had a very good capacity for memory and actually remember being an infant. I remember having a deep level of comprehension regarding what was happening to me in my environment. The circumstances were dire and it was extremely excruciating on a psychic level for me to go through, and perhaps all the more so 'because' there was no language and seemed to be felt or experienced much more intensely that way. I had very deep, complex thoughts / feelings and apparently clear understanding in regard to my circumstances. I knew that I was being abandoned while the mother was right there, among other things. I think that would be fairly complex comprehension for an infant, among others. I finally became unresponsive and lapsed into a catatonic state and had to be taken to the hospital when I was eight months old because it was so overwhelming to cope with in every way, including psychologically. Language continues to be a challenge so I relate to it that way still on some levels.



bee33
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18 Sep 2010, 10:02 pm

SuperApsie wrote:
To do the exploration further, try to read The Geography Of Time by Robert Levine. It tries to understand why such big differences between "north and south" exist and he takes the time, or the perception of it as the center of his study. It is very entertaining to read and with your knowledge of both worlds you will find it even more fascinating!

http://www.amazon.com/Geography-Time-Mi ... 0465026427

And of course language intervenes in the process
That sounds very interesting. That sort of thing is right up my alley. I'll have to check it out. Thanks.



Cassia
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18 Sep 2010, 10:20 pm

Wow, this is fascinating. Thanks for the link.


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leftyswin
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18 Sep 2010, 11:53 pm

Wow, t hanks for the link. I love waisting away hours thinking about things like that..