The Trials of being a Woman with AS

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I've decided to write this post as it has been called to my attention that many people are ignorant as to the issues women with AS face. So I thought I would give you all an idea of the things many of us have to put up with.

1. We are a minority among minorities, and apparently not very well understood amongst our own "kind" or the psychiatrists, psychologists, and others who theoretically are supposed to help us.

2. Women with AS are more likely to be brushed off as "cold" or "frigid" or "depressed" or misdiagnosed as having a mood disorder for which they are then improperly medicated.

3. Women with AS not only suffer the same social deficits as men with AS, but have to deal with the added pressure of the fact that women in society are expected to be more social and more emotionally expressive than men in general. This causes a woman with AS to be more distant from NT women than men with AS are from NT men.

4. Women's clothing is geared towards aesthetics, not comfort or function, and so is usually more complex and uncomfortable than men's clothing. Women are expected to wear things such as bras, which many women with AS find difficult to tolerate.

5. Women are expected to wear makeup in society, which many women with AS also find difficult to tolerate.

6. Women are judged far more strongly by their appearance and a woman with AS who cannot tolerate bras, women's clothing or makeup may very well be passed up for a good job on the basis of her looks, and will very likely exclude herself from finding a partner.

7. Women with AS are more at risk of lonliness, because most women with AS do not have the social skills to form and maintain friendships with NT women (who are actually more hostile to "weird" women than "weird" men), and men they befriend as adults often have a relationship of a non-platonic nature in mind, and would not consider a platonic female friend on the same level as a platonic male friend, thus would exclude her from many social events that he would not exclude his male friends from.

The difficulty in forming friendships with NT women is underscored by the fact that many women with AS, having what is thought to be a "masculine" brain, and don't even share many common interests or perspectives with NT women.

8. In non-platonic relationships, women are expected to have a high level of intuition and perception, and provide a high level of emotional warmth, and most women with AS do not have the ability to provide this due to the non-verbal learning disabilities.

9. Many women with AS do not like to be touched, which can make forming a non-platonic relationship difficult even when she wants to be with the person.

10. Women with AS are just as socially naive as men with AS, and far more likely to be taken advantage of physically by the opposite sex because there is more of an attempt to do so by the opposite sex and she may have a far more difficult time determining a man's intentions than an NT woman. She is also far more likely to be unaware of how he is interpreting her on a non-verbal level.

11. There is little in the way of support for adults with AS, and far less in the way of support for women with AS.

12. "Support" sites such as this are full of men who may or may not have AS but use this as a place to vent their frustrations with women, inevitably making this a hostile and non-supportive place for women with AS.

13. "Support" sites such as this are full of men with AS who minimize the difficulties of women with AS by proclaiming we have it so much easier, and failing to really stop and think and consider that perhaps we really don't, because we have all the same social deficits they do, while at the same time more social expectations are placed on us, and there are fewer safe people for us to make friends with.

I'm not saying we always have it worse than the men. We're less likely to be physically bullied in school and it's not nearly as socially inappropriate for us to cry in public, but we certainly don't have it any easier and I would really appreciate if those of you who think that we do, would stop.

I think women and men have their fair shares of problems each. I think its a good idea to accept that and not undermine the problems of the other sex.

Being a woman with AS is easier in some ways than men with AS, and more difficult in others. Would be good if all parties recognised this.

I agree with both of you. I think some attention needs to be given to the women's clothing issue in society in general...I've always had a beef with it. Women's shoes, for instance...who the bleeeeeep made the rule that we have to wear shoes that pinch our toes and make us trip and harm our backs???? And why not the same standard for men? And why is it "attractive" for us to wear clothing so tight it's uncomfortable, while men can wear what makes them comfortable?

I'm not bashing men...I'm bashing the society in which we live that makes women like me with sensory issues cringe.

~Kate

Yeah, agreed.

Some of the things on the OP's list may be valid, some apply to men with AS too, some to women without AS and some sound more like personal experience. It's a bit of a selective list TBH.

In VERY GENERAL terms I think men and women with AS have one big advantage over the opposite sex:

1 - Young women with AS are more likely to find a partner than young men with AS, assuming their AS is at a comparable level (a cliche, but true).

2 - However, men with AS have more time on their side. Assuming they can improve their social skills, etc., men with AS have more chance of marrying/starting a family, etc., at a later age than women with AS.

In fact, these two differences apply to NT's as well to some degree, but they're pronounced in the Autistic community because of the social skills deficiency.

Men and women mutually decide what we find attractive in the opposite sex. Rightly or wrongly, men do enjoy it when women dress up, but women would hate it if men invested the same effort in their appearance (in fact, women complain if men are 'too metrosexual' or 'he uses more products than me').

I believe this is biological. In primitive society men were attracted to the most fertile women, and fertility is symbolized by youth and beauty, whilst women were attracted to the 'best hunters'. These primitive instincts remain in our DNA, so we continue to revere female beauty and male athleticism (the modern of equivalent of hunting), whilst we dismiss 'pretty boys' and 'athletic tomboys'. It may be unfair, but feminine men and masculine women will always be marginalized in mainstream culture.

So it's not society to blame, but biology.

And our overdeveloped frontal lobes can't say, this is ridiculous, let's move beyond this crap and think with the *correct* head for once?

~Kate

My only point was that life isn't easier for a woman with AS. I was not trying to simultaneously claim that men have it easier.

As much as can be said about romantic or non-platonic relationships, I do not wish that to become the focus of this post, because in all honesty, true AS extends far beyond that small realm into everything else, and it's everything else that makes up a far larger part of our lives.

Many of those points apply in the reverse to me, and I am a man.

I have lost two relationships specifically because I was not "attentive enough, sexually"

I find this highly debatable. Men who aren't social with other men are immedately bullied, outcast. Men without male friends are considered poor candidates for relationships. Men without friends are considered "loners" my other men, and verbally abused. A lone man without friends is extremely suspicious. Not only to women, but to the parents as well. Men are also expected my the majority to share in male activities like cat calls and talking about 'conquests of the opposite sex' - which is something most of us don't have experience with, and some of us don't agree with. Most typically male NT activities are loud, boisterous and rough.

You've never heard of suits? TIES? As for partners, I return to the point above regarding "a lone man without friends is extremely suspicious. Not only to women, but to the parents as well".

AS males lack the same skills. Find similar hostilities. Women exclude men from social activities too. This whole paragraph can be applied in reverse.

As previously stated: men are expected my the majority to share in male activities like cat calls and talking about 'conquests of the opposite sex' - which is something most of us don't have experience with, and some of us don't agree with. We're also expected to me more active, bar-oriented, sports-oriented, etc. Whereas many of us don't share these common NT obsessions, or enjoy the roughhousing and bravado and noise associated with these highly NT-Male-Social events. Many of us (see multiple threads) are considered "gay" by our peers and families due to our perceived effinate behaviour, or at least our lack of male behaviour, and whether we are or aren't gay, we are treated (and beaten, and outcast) in the same way that gay men are abused in this society.

Redirect to the first quote.

Redirect to the first quote.

Most of the hostilities are contained in two of the forums here. Most of the men with these complaints are the same ones over and over. Most of them complain because in the NT society they are surrounded by, other men TEASE and TAUNT and look down on them because they're virgins, and have no "great sex stories" to tell. Being an inexperienced male shunts you to the bottom rung of the social scale in the NT male hierarchy. Especially by fathers. So many of those posters are simply responding in a "bravado" way to a society that is beating them over what they then perceive as their number one flaw: 'never got a girl'.
For women, as I understand it, keeping your virginity is a RAISE in stature with other women, with other men, and with parents?



Chronos. I feel you have a 100% right to make this statement, and that you women DO INDEED have a hard time here from time to time. Those men who bash you and call women by [ridiculous] names and shunt you all into one category are short minded. My problem with your post, and the reason I have annotated it, is because you make some points of your own that show you don't understand OUR lot in life any better than we (in general) do yours. I felt some of the innacuracies and accusations (yes, accusations) needed to be dealt with here and now.

Well, would you date a feminine man who wore make-up? If the answer's 'yes', fair enough, but that's pretty unusual. If it's 'no' - as I suspect it is - then you're just as trapped by your primitive instincts as any man!

I would, and in fact, I do. My boyfriend pays a lot of attention to his clothing, is always worried about looking good, and will occasionally wear makeup. We may be in the minority but many people are just fine with that.

BTW: I am a self-diagnosed Aspie female, in a long-term (4.5 years right now) relationship with a NT male. I deal with many of these issues every single day, and I agree with most of the OP. I think everyone just needs to understand that just because we have the same condition, it does not mean that we show it in the same way, or are treated the same way.

You are correct. Many of them reply in reverse. I don't believe I ever said they apply exclusively to women.

My only point was that women don't have it easier.



Yes they do. The exact same skills.



It can indeed. There certainly are some men with AS who might relate more to NT women on a social level, or at least feel safer with them. But as you will see if you look in the women's forum, a large number of women with AS have great difficulty related to NT women and find men in general fair easier to relate to and socialize with. It is a big problem that women with AS face.



So I deserve to be demonized for that..on top of everything else I have to deal with?




My only accusation was that a lot of the men on here do not take the time to consider what the women with AS have to deal with.

I do understand your "lot" in life actually. I don't see what made you conclude that I don't unless you feel that bringing to light the things women face, in response to accusations that women have it easier, somehow minimizes what men with AS face. Not only do I understand it but I'm actually quite sympathetic to it, which is why I have spent so much time responding to posts in the dating forum, despite the hostilities towards me just for being a woman, because I know the things the men go through and I know that many men desperately want a woman, and I would like them to find happiness in life so I have done my best to offer them what advice and insight I can, even though most of these men have declared me the root of all evils by proxy of my sex.

I know society expects men to be confident and outgoing and I know having to step up to that role can be terrifying, especially when you know you don't always know what is socially right and socially wrong. When you know you can't read non-verbal cues very well. When you know you are socially awkward and you basically feel like you are flying blind, and I know this because women with AS face the same problems at times.

I know a lot of men have been the subject of bullying when they were younger, and perhaps have more of a desire to be accepted and respected amongst other males than females do other females....I'm guessing here because to be honest I don't really know what most females desire of other females. I know a lot men with were subject to gay slurs when they were younger.

For a time I went to a school for children who did not do well in a traditional school setting. The kids with AS were lumped in with the kids with ADHD and so on. It was all boys and I was the only girl. Things were settled between students one of three ways. Either someone would be called a "fa***t" someone would be socked in the jaw when the teacher wasn't looking, or someone would be called a fa***t and then socked in the jaw when the teacher wasn't looking. But girls can be vicious to and I'm sure there are women with AS who endured a good deal of bullying when they were younger.

I know sex is important to men, and I'm probably one of the few women you will find who recognizes that a healthy sex life in a lot of men, equates to good emotional and mental health, but the female equivalent is usually romance, and I don't think most women with AS are getting romance any more than most men with AS are getting sex and it can be equally frustrating for both of them.

And this is where the conversation usually degenerates into "women just have to sit there in the open and can get any guy they want" which is absolute BS. And let us be entirely realistic and state that even if a woman with AS did initially get the man she wants, it doesn't mean she will be able to create or sustain a romantic relationship with him, due to all the problems a person with AS can have in a relationship, just like even if a man with AS can meet a woman, it doesn't mean he will be able to advance the relationship to the point of sex or anything more meaningful, for the same exact reasons.

We have social issues. Both men and women with AS and even and even though we fight slightly different battles, we are really trying to win equivalent things emotionally. So lets just stop with saying women have it easier and all the hostilities towards women.

I can only relate to some of this but number seven IS MY LIFE.

You don't know how many times I've been through this, whether it ended in a relationship that I didn't really want or the end of a friendship with a man because I didn't want to date him.

I also get pegged for being depressed when I don't show a lot of feeling or enthusiasm for things, and I definitely do think that has a lot to do with me being a woman. Sometimes I force myself to show enthusiasm when I don't really care because I can't stand people treating me like I'm depressed, I feel like a downer. I simply don't have the range of emotions that most women have, but I'm reasonably friendly and can be very warm with the people I care about.

+2

From work clothes to casual clothes to bathing suit, there's nothing made for women that I find comfortable to wear.



You mean just like there's a biological reason for pink being a girl's color.

And this is why I think evolutionary psychology is crap.

Last edited by menintights on 15 Sep 2010, 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

You made many points in your original post that apply to both sexes equally when it comes to people with ASD. The presentation of those points was such that you implied they primarily applied to women. You used phrases such as "more at risk of lonliness" etc. This was where I took umbrage.

I don't think women have it any harder than men.



That PERSONS with AS face. We have the same issue. To the same extent.
Reread my previous post.
Men who don't have a string of conquests, a love for roughhousing, a membership at the gym, big muscles, sports enthusiasms, joy of loud bars, etc etc are ostracised just as badly as the women who fail to get interested in gossipy gossip-land. And again, men with no friends are often seen as 'odd' by women, and by their families as well, whereas a woman without friends isn't quite as offputting.

In addition, I'd like to point out that ASD women are not the only ones with trouble maintaining a healthy sexual connection. There are nine (no other details will be provided) women on this website alone, in NT(f)-ASD(m) relationships, who I am in frequent pm-communication with who have issues about their husbands failing to be sexually assertive / sufficiently active / receptive in the relationship. I bring this up, because I feel concerned that some commentary in this thread might inadvertanly push the NT women in these situations to feel even more troubled about their situations than they already are. And I assume by basic logic, that there are more than those 9 out there in the world.

But I didn't come here to argue.
I'd like to end it. I'd like to agree that ASD men have a LOT of the same issues that you posted in your OP and to the SAME extent as women do. I'd like to agree that men who say "Women can just go out there and fill their needs" are short sighted and wrong. I'd like to agree that a lot of men are looking for romance and relationships, not just (or even primarily) sex. I'd like to agree that noone should be putting down anyone else's troubles in regards to ANY topic. That we are all here, as people on, or associated with people on the ASD spectrum, to support one another, and to stop criticizing or weighing the troubles of one gender against the other.

Last edited by OddFiction on 15 Sep 2010, 10:03 am, edited 3 times in total.

THANK YOOOOOOU! I'm so tired of hearing people casually blame social problems on biology and then brush them off as if they were incurable and we should just accept it and shut up.

It's not ok to treat men as hunters and women as walking wombs. We can change our mental perspective if we want to. All it takes is using your damn neocortex. It's not that hard. I don't expect men to be 'hunter' types. I don't expect them to provide for me or do the heavy lifting for me. I think it's every bit as sexist as criticizing a woman for wearing comfortable clothes instead of highly sexualizing ones.

That's wildly exaggerating what I said.

What you personally find attractive in men isn't the issue here, it's what most women find attractive in men. Most women want men who are discernably more masculine than them. Is this nature or nurture? Well, let's just say that highly intelligent, highly educated, very successful women are just as likely to want a masculine man. Have these women - despite all their great talents - simply been brainwashed to want certain qualities in a man? And do you honestly believe human beings are the ONLY species of animal that doesn't mate by primitive instinct, at least to some degree, especially as we evolved from some of these animals? If we could dismiss all our primitive instincts just by using our 'damn neocortex' no-one would ever have a panic attack!

As for women wearing comfortable clothes: why shouldn't BOTH sexes look nice for each other? If women have a 'right' to demand that men act/dress masculine, then why shouldn't men have the 'right' to demand that women act/dress feminine? Suggesting that women should be able to to 'dress down' on dates is a double standard if you don't give men 'permission' to 'dress up'. If you're willing to accept a boyfriend/husband who wears dresses and make-up, fair enough, but if you're one of the 99.99% of women who wouldn't accept this, because it's too feminine, then you can hardly complain if he considers your dress sense too masculine!

I don't personally want to wear women's clothes I hasten to add. Just illustrating a point. lol