I'm slightly perturbed (NT perceptions of the AS condition)

Post Reply New Topic

Occasionally, when I have the time, I indulge myself in the current subject of my curiosity, using my wonderful academic database access privileges.

Tonight's subject was Asperger's Syndrome, as I was interested if any recent brain imaging studies have been done which might shed some light on my coordination issues.

Unfortunately, the bulk of mentionings on the issue of AS and "clumsyness" are historical in nature, but interesting none the less; and thus I found myself reading through various books which eluded to the subject, with some being recent and others rather old.

Books differ from research papers, in that a well written research paper states the observations of the researchers in a rather pure form, and is generally devoid of declarative conclusions. A researcher might suggest to the reader what they feel to be the best interpretation of the data, however this is usually done in a quite sterile manner.

Books, on the other hand, contain within them what is known as the author's "voice". This entails that the author has included in the book information which is intended to communicate to the reader, the author's own perceptions.

After reading many pages in a number of these books on AS, I find myself somewhat perturbed, that many of the authors seem to perceive us in a rather inferior manner.

While many books certainly did not fail to mention the strengths of many individuals with AS, I was left with the impression that the authors did not perceive such strengths as a sufficiently equalizing trade off, being quick to declare the weakness of those with AS "disabilities," while never once applying such a word to the weakness afforded by the NT brain.

I was particularly offended by one such excerpt on adults with Asperger's Syndrome:

I generally find that people with AS are more practical than NT's, as NT's have all types of strange inhibitions. For example, they will continue to take sidewalks when cutting across the grass is clearly the shorter path on many occasions. If NT's were really all that practical, then they would all use paper plates or dishes made out of some other disposable material instead of bothering to constantly do dishes.

On the subject of putting things together, I find that many individuals with AS, myself included, excel in this area. In fact I rarely read instruction manuals. If they were trying to present this as an example of poor motor skills, it was a poor...and insulting, example.

I also encountered many times what I believe to be mis-interpretations by the author, as they are subject to the inevitable biases that arise when one is unable to take an emic view of situations.

For example, one author, in detailing specific learning styles common of many with AS, states...



While I admit I am not a good multi-tasker, I object to the suggestion that I am limited in my capability to solve problems by trial and error. I frequently do so....in fact I generally program in this manner.

The book then goes on to suggest that people with AS rely heavily on rote memory, with a general lack of understanding of how things work, and tend to fail in subjects "as the demand to seek knowledge more independently increases"

The authors overlook the fact that the child they use an example excelled when learning on his own. They attribute the child's failure in school to that which I outlined in the previous block. However there are many flaws with this perception.

1. Most people with AS seek out knowledge in a field of their interest entirely independently of any direction or prompting.

2. The authors disregard the fact that the child did well learning on his own, and only struggled in an environment where he was forced to learn in a style which caters specifically to NT learning styles.

Actually, I'm going to stop at 2 because I really think that is the crux of the issue. People with AS generally do well when allowed to learn under their own direction, and generally have difficulty following in class due to processing differences. I propose it is actually NT's who rely more on rote memory. As a person with a few degrees, I can tell you, most things that are taught in elementary school to jr. high are of a rote nature, and most people have little indepth understanding of the sciences.

Anyway, my impression upon reading through many of these books was, at times, one of a Native American reading a paper by a white man, describing him as a savage. That is to say, biased opinions based in part on superficial observations, with little in the way of in depth understanding.

I've read very few things about studies and I haven't read many books about Autism but the few things I have read suggests that they don't tend to ask any of us anything much. They seem to look at us as things to be studied instead of people. They seem to assume we aren't able to explain anything about ourselves to them.

They seem to look at us through their own perception of the world instead of realising that our perception of the world causes us to be different and act differently than they would when faced with similar issues.

I agree with you Chronos.
We live in a world built around Neurotypicals so it's no surprise they have such critical opinions of us.

Last edited by koyukon on 29 Nov 2010, 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

You've reminded me of the reason why I've never rushed out and bought any AS books.

These things are bound to happen because the authors are mostly non-Aspies who simply don't know how it feels to be on the inside of the condition. Your feeling of being a native American reading books about yourself written by whites, is understandable. I've often felt that we've got the same problem as black people had when the only voice for liberating them came from white people. Just like with the black-white thing, you can't really have a credible study of AS without people who actually have the condition being given a speaking part.

You're also correct that books are usually written with an "author's voice" which is considerably more biased than a scientific paper. That's what I hate about books in general. Authors constantly over-step the mark when it comes to jumping to conclusions and meshing opinion with fact. The public don't seemt to know much about scientific rigour, and the authors probably realise that they'll sell more copies if they make sure they don't let the truth get in the way of a good story. Honesty is usually less spicy and interesting than a good yarn.....you can't honestly make any eye-catching, sweeping generalisations or bold, revolutionary statements.

Even well-respected experts such as Baron-Cohen fall down the same hole. I haven't read his books on autism, but he wrote one about male and female psychology in which he came down heavily on the side of "men are from Mars, women are from Venus" even though scientifically speaking the picture is nothing like that clear. He kind of pre-empts the objections early on on his book by saying that he knows it's not so clear, but then he goes on to speak with that biased "author's voice" as if he'd never said that. I've seen a number of things written about autism that do this - first you get a disclaimer, an admission that AS is a spectrum disorder about which generalisations can't easily be made, then off they go and generalise, for the rest of the book.

I suppose there's some value in their work, in the same way as there's some value in the adverserial system which attempts to divine the truth by listening to a couple of heavily biased viewpoints that go in opposite directions. Personally I always long for some honest views, carefully whittled down to what is objectively true, with all the emotive hype and rhetoric flushed down the pan where it belongs, but I guess it's only good scientists and those with pathological honesty who are capable of that kind of communication. As far as the rest of the world is concerned, bias and distortion are OK.

I agree with your thoughts that people with AS might be more practical, but some have habits that make no sense other than to calm an irrational impulse. Walking on a sidewalk instead of grass is respectful of the owner of the property, people cut across the grass all the time. In some places they wear a dirt path through what was a nice lawn, it separates respectful from not, not NT from AS.

I'm not sure what is practical about using paper plates, they cost more money and take more resources. Dishes last for a long time, cleaning up after yourself is Just part of living. I would say buying something for usefulness over appearance is practical. I feel your two examples are only practical if you don't look any further than saving yourself time, regardless of possible costs or effects.

Many articles on AS are about individuals with much more impaired daily functioning. Those are the quickest to get diagnosed and the ones getting help most. I'm sure most NT's wouldn't be all that happy with how they are portrayed in these forums from time to time. Unfortunately it's the extremes that get the most study and gain the stereotype.

But is exactly this the point of the concept of "Asperger's Syndrome" - the reason because AS is considered a distinct condition, with a name ("Asperger's Syndrome"), instead of simply a variation of the normal personality, is because its disadvantages are supposed to be much higher that its advantages.

In other words, if the trade-off between strenghtds and disabilities of AS was neutral or positive, AS will not be AS, but simply a personal eccentricitie (perhaps a subtype of "nerdiness" or "geekiness").

I'm not sure, but maybe what Chronos is getting at is that many of those disadvantages have to do with living in a world set up for NTs. I don't think this is the case for everyone on the spectrum - many people experience other issues, like executive dysfunction or sensory integration problems that would not go away if the world played by more Aspie rules.

Besides that, people with Aspergers have such a range of needs and behaviors: I don't know that it would be possible to create an environment that would suit everyone.

However, there is a degree to which many issues perceived to be disabilities by the outside world are really just differences that could be addressed best with tolerance.

They are disadvantages in respect to the NT world because they are seen as disadvantages by NT's, much as in China, being short is a vast disadvantage because it is made so by people who are not short. There is blatant discrimination against short people in China, to the extent that many short Chinese men opt to undergo a radical leg lengthening procedure. Being short is seen as such a disadvantage in China, that this procedure is often paid for by the government.

People with AS often have difficulty with employment because we often have difficulty with those personality tests (which are inaccurate even when NT's take them), and many employers do not give a person with AS the time they need to acclimate. However, once acclimated I think most people with AS would outperform many NT's, and I have heard this from employers who have given those with AS this opportunity.

I don't even read textbooks anymore because I got sick of what I read about AS. I know it's not accurate for everyone. I prefer forums now or memoirs.

I have had a hard time with those tests too and I don't think I have ever passed one. I found out I would have to lie on them and I hate lying and what if I got caught? What's the point in lying if they are going to find out eventually if I am struggling in the work environment because I am getting customer complaints let's say? Do I want to take the risk? But nope I never had such a job so I don't know how well I'd do there.

I should have clarified; I was thinking of cutting across grass in public places. I generally would not cut across someone's lawn...there usually isn't any advantage in doing so around here anyway.

Concerning the paper plates, it seems to me that NT's are most concerned with practicality in terms of time and money. Whether or not disposable plates are more cost effective or not depends on many variables, such as, how much does one pay for water, gas, and electricity, how much does one pay for dishsoap and sponges, how much does one pay for a dish set, how often does one break dishes, how much are disposable plates, and so on. In some instances, I am sure disposable plates would turn out to be the cheaper option. When priorities are weighted towards time, I believe disposable plates are the more practical option.

As for impractical impulses....why do some women spend hundreds of dollars on "shoes" and purses of particular brand names when they often look, and function not much differently than far cheaper shoes or purses?

Why do they buy shoes they can't walk more than a few feet at a time in?

I bought the shoes I have because they are comfortable and I can walk great distances in them. I am on my second pair of this model and will continue to buy this model as long as I can find it as they have proven to be quite practical and suitable for their intended purpose.

I prefer to watch personal videos posted to youtube by individuals with autistic spectrum disorders, than to read about it. I hate that a lot of written information about the disorder goes on and on about the social aspects of it and ignores the other more disabling characteristics.

On that note, I also believe it's pointless saying that NTs shouldn't act superior but then allow ourselves to do the same. That brings us down to the same level. We do actually have defects and it's just unlucky. There are positive things too, but there are also positive things about being NT. A person without an autistic spectrum disorder doesn't get sick from being in a slightly noisy or smelly or hot or busy environment. NTs don't have to struggle to communicate with each other every day, nor are they prone to feeling nauseous or dizzy or overwhelmed just because we're going to a different shop today than was expected. We're in an NT-dominated world where we are defective in their eyes, and therefore we need them to accommodate us much of the time. However, they need to understand far more fully than they do. It'll take a long time though, as it's not easy for someone on the outside to understand.

I really hate the "idiot savent" / "rote learner" stereotype because it doesn't apply at all to me.

I have executive function issues that make certain kinds of tasks mentally feel like I'm being forced to pull my own teeth out. On the other hand, I tend to excel in the area of intuition and usually I can come up with much more elegant solutions to problems than most NT's. Getting started and dealing with distractions is usually my biggest hurdle in getting things done.

From my perspective NT's tend to approach things in a rather illogical and sloppy manner. They are not very elegant systemizers. Looking at computer code written by NT's confirms this for me. I tend to be as systematic as possible because I hate doing things by rote memory.

Actually, no one can truly perform several kinds of tasks simultaneously by the defintion of simultaneously.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictiona ... ltaneously
The human brain is not built to do this and if anyone can claim they can do is truly full of crap. What happens is a person does task A, takes some time to switch to task B(Quantam) and then does task A again.


What is really happening is called task switching.

http://ultimatesuperset.blogspot.com/20 ... cient.html Here is what I wrote about it and my math not only proves him right but actually no one can perform tasks simultaneously. In fact, mono-tasking is more efficient than this switch tasking as proven by my math on my blog.

Now that's a perfect example, while paper plates can be as debatable as paper vs plastic bags, form over function is too widely prized in the average world.

1. Sometimes the instructions are complicated and takes forever because they're vague. The instructions could be usless to me.

2. I have said this before and will say it again. Words can have many meanings and each meaning can have many usages. I can see different interpretions to the instructions. Again, the instructions may be useless and I have had to go outside the instructions and try to intrepret what they were saying. It is not true to say that "A" will not get any further than the instructions when doing IKEA-type DIY jobs because sometimes I have to go outside the instructions and examine it from different angles to understand what the instructions are saying. I am an Aspergers Person who has to go outside the the instructions due to the vaguness and the ambiguity of the instructions which would render my following the instructions impractical. How am I an impractical person?

Multi-tasking..task switching. Admittedly I'm horrible at it. However I'm excellent at dedicated, time consuming tasks, and I am quite good at trial and error and creative solution problem solving. I really think if the authors got the impression that people with AS are generally bad at such things, it's likely because of misinterpretation or misunderstanding on their part of how the mind of someone with AS is working.