-_- Conversations going downhill...

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Hey, I'm back again. (Yes, I lurk around to read motivational words by the people here. Makes sense to me when compared to everything else that confuses me about the world around me).

Anyway, the main reason I'm posting again is due to a relationship with someone I know going downhill. I've been feeling demotivated from trying to decide how I exhurt my pent up feelings on why things turned out so badly so quickly. Reading my logs inidicate that I'm supposedly to blame for wrecking someone's feelings with my tactless behavior, however that doesn't seem logical at all.

To sum it up, she comes up. Starts belittling people, I talk about a personal opinion that wasn't directed at her. She gets mad when my usage of hobby was, as far as I'm concerned, correct. Then I emotionlessly point out that if she doesn't think it's a hobby, but rather it's a profession not to give up more standard forms of work since I don't believe her current ability is good enough to warrant me giving an unrealistic opinion. -_-

Here's the conversation (Had to etch out the f word once):
Allison S (2006/07/02 22:20:19): sigh
Allison S (2006/07/02 22:20:19): websites are annoying
Allison S (2006/07/02 22:20:19): i got an average of 130 hits a day
Allison S (2006/07/02 22:20:19): kinda crappy
taruby (2006/07/02 22:20:32): ... Ho hum.
Allison S (2006/07/02 22:20:41): how many do u get?
Allison S (2006/07/02 22:21:26): last month it did over a gig
taruby (2006/07/02 22:21:28): I had an angelfire site, it only told me the last 24 hours of access. -_- Probably just 20-30 a day unless I release something.
Allison S (2006/07/02 22:21:31): thats surprising
Allison S (2006/07/02 22:22:09): thats alot for a site that is just an online comic
Allison S (2006/07/02 22:22:21): so u think thats good or bad?
taruby (2006/07/02 22:22:45): I don't know. I don't really pay attention to the hits and access for webcomic sites.
Allison S (2006/07/02 22:22:59): lol
Allison S (2006/07/02 22:23:24): In general, compared to most peoples personal sties, i have a very good following
taruby (2006/07/02 22:23:35): most people = worst artists?
Allison S (2006/07/02 22:23:35): but im just a 3rd rate webcomic releasing crap
Allison S (2006/07/02 22:23:46): what?
taruby (2006/07/02 22:23:54): You said most people's sites.
Allison S (2006/07/02 22:24:21): i mean people that say they have a "website" and its just a little site about crap that gets 2 hits a month
taruby (2006/07/02 22:24:48): It's easy to beat crap that's why I don't compare myself to it. n_n
Allison S (2006/07/02 22:24:54): lol yea
Allison S (2006/07/02 22:25:06): i make comics as an insentive to better myself
Allison S (2006/07/02 22:25:12): i do not do it for the readers
Allison S (2006/07/02 22:25:20): its to get practice at drawing
taruby (2006/07/02 22:25:38): Umm, any personal hobby should be for yourself. Most fan-pleasers irritate me. >_>
Allison S (2006/07/02 22:25:40): so my comic changes its look and has different qualities all the time
Allison S (2006/07/02 22:25:53): im not pleasing fans
Allison S (2006/07/02 22:25:57): and its not a hobby
Allison S (2006/07/02 22:26:03): its an insentive to get me to draw
Allison S (2006/07/02 22:26:12): so that i better my ability
taruby (2006/07/02 22:26:20): How is it not a hobby?
Allison S (2006/07/02 22:26:34): its a profession
Allison S (2006/07/02 22:26:45): brb
taruby (2006/07/02 22:26:53): ... I doubt anyone would pay for it but that's my opinion. >_>
Allison S (2006/07/02 22:27:10): drawing is my profession
Allison S (2006/07/02 22:27:15): im an illustrator
Allison S (2006/07/02 22:27:31): im getting better for when i get out of school and work for publishers
taruby (2006/07/02 22:27:31): Don't quit your day job. n_n;
Allison S (2006/07/02 22:27:36): f you
taruby (2006/07/02 22:28:17): Sorry, I just find it funny how most artists (music and the like) have to support their profession through other means, and they're dead and gone before it becomes popular.
Allison S (2006/07/02 22:28:37): im an illustrator jackass
Allison S (2006/07/02 22:28:45): its a different area
Allison S (2006/07/02 22:28:58): illustration is the area where it is possible to support yourself
taruby (2006/07/02 22:29:05): Oh, really?
Allison S (2006/07/02 22:29:11): we are the logical artists
Allison S (2006/07/02 22:29:17): we work for comission
Allison S (2006/07/02 22:29:23): they tell us what to do and we do it
taruby (2006/07/02 22:29:55): 7_7 So it's based on whether anyone has a need for you? Good luck with that.
Allison S (2006/07/02 22:30:23): dont bother trying to understand it
taruby (2006/07/02 22:30:33): Thank you.
Allison S (2006/07/02 22:30:40): you are just being a jerk
Allison S (2006/07/02 22:30:45): u should work on that
taruby (2006/07/02 22:30:48): =)
Allison S (2006/07/02 22:30:53): (meaning dont be a jerk)
Allison S (2006/07/02 22:30:59): I know what im doing
Allison S (2006/07/02 22:31:04): i dont have futile hopes
taruby (2006/07/02 22:31:15): If you know what you're doing, why do you need my input?
Allison S (2006/07/02 22:31:23): Im working at my art so im better than the other illustrators when i get out
Allison S (2006/07/02 22:31:36): i never asked for your input!
Allison S (2006/07/02 22:31:50): god your being dumb
taruby (2006/07/02 22:31:57): Talking to me is about kin to asking for my opinion.
Allison S (2006/07/02 22:31:59): you're
Allison S (2006/07/02 22:32:36): and that is even dumber
taruby (2006/07/02 22:32:51): I think you need to get less defensive.
Allison S (2006/07/02 22:32:55): i was talking about my website
Allison S (2006/07/02 22:33:05): you broght up the art part of it
Allison S (2006/07/02 22:33:13): i never said anything about art
Allison S (2006/07/02 22:33:16): u brought it up
Allison S (2006/07/02 22:33:44): then you started assuming stuff
Allison S (2006/07/02 22:34:11): Im very defensive about my life
taruby (2006/07/02 22:34:20): I'm the opposite.
Allison S (2006/07/02 22:34:30): its my life, it doesnt need anyone's sarcasm
taruby (2006/07/02 22:35:46): Still, you need to take less offense by what people say, it'll make it harder for you. The only one insulting another person with words made for insults is you. =\
Allison S (2006/07/02 22:36:44): stupid coments about someones lifes work and ambition is worse than petty words
taruby (2006/07/02 22:37:10): 7_7 Why does this sound like a shounen manga?

I currently had to block this person since I doubt if I would see any change in her behavior anytime soon. I'm trying to decide whether I should apologize and tolerate her behavior or try to get her to see things from a logical point of view. Because, calling something that isn't a profession a hobby was completely correct in this context and she blew up in my face.

Something similar to this happened to me before with another girl online where she misread what I wrote, and aggressively started insulting me and calling me explicitives. Encounters like this make me not want to do anything socially with people. I like people from a safe distance and can tolerate them at a distance, but I don't think I care to deal with people who fly off the handle so easily.

I probably might anger some types of people here. When I had this conversation, I really wasn't thinking at all. Just an emotionless and automatic response.

So, I'm thinking of like 1) keeping her blocked 2) unblock and lie/pretend to make her happy 3) Point out my problems with her, ask her to do her fair share of changing behavior so she quits this hyper-senstiive emotionally-driven cry for comfort from an intidividual that is too honest to pretend. I personally had a couple people do a revenge rebuke attack on me that also stresses me out so if I was to consider her on the same level to be treated as me, I would have to opt not to perform option 3). 1) keeping her blocked would be my default action, it just feels so good. Although, it's sad that every relationship I had with someone ends like that except when I talk to people that are not emotionally-sensitive (Only know one person like this, and I completely adore how easily we get along and can argue reasonably without resorting to insults).

Oh, and to add something that completely baffles me:

I think I should avoid people with artistic talent, it seems they're all sensitive regarding these issues. I personally wouldn't care if someone said something callously about what I do, especially if it was true. The guy with the cigarette is asking a question, I would give an appropiate answer. Taking his question offensively is quite immature in my opinion. *sigh*

If my post insults you and you wish to hate me as well, feel free to. If I accidentally didn't censor any bad words. Please inform me about that as well, I want to keep things clean but it's kind of hard to tell what is and isn't appropiate since I'm immune to most forms of it.

Take care and bye. I'll try to see if I can deal with this bad case of insomnia. -_-

well the world has a double standard for some reason. I dont get it either. I mean seriously, what she was talking about was a hobby in the works towards becoming a career. In that sense, what you said was perfectly acceptable. On the other hand, she said she draws to get better so it is no longer just something for fun, it is something more towards the ideal of practice. Its like being in the martial arts in a way. You may not be doing this for anyone else, but you get credit for your time you used to get better at it. In this instance she is trying different styles to get a better appreciation for the art forms and learning what she is better and worse at to see where she needs more practice. In short, you might not want to tell someone the truth if they can't handle it. I'm dealing with a similar situation on these forums because i gave my opinion on something I wasn't exactly asked for. Even though it was put out there for people to see and opinionate, it wasn't put in writing or verbally, "what do you think of this". If this person of yours is a decent friend then patch things up, if not, dont worry about it and let it go.

Hello Emoal6,

I read the other thread that you mentioned, strange how my strong principals are so vastly different. I guess sensitivity is more than just an NT thing which is what I was hoping beyond irrational hope. I personally do my own form of creative works, although I'm not satisfied with my pitiful expression of them.

Unlike other people who throw things out and can only take a certain degree of comments. I pretty much have an 360 degree outlook on what I receive from people to the point that I almost expect them to insult me. Now that I think about it, my tolerance is probably an after-affect of my childhood where I was repeatably told how worthless I was and how I wouldn't amount to anything. My counselor commented that it was a nightmare but I feel in my heart that it was a good source of character-building for when I go out into the abusive world we live in.

The behavior toward you in the other post seems to be quite similar to me, and considering the negative and rude reaction you received, has been quite educational. Although, I'm a believer that I can do anything I want as long as I can accept the consequences. If you aren't willing to accept negativity, then prepare for a sad life. Withdrawing from socializing probably makes me happy, but I do have a morbid desire to try and make my personal feelings known. =)

What bothers me about my case was that I was being completely neutral and indifferent when I said those things and it then suddenly has emotional and sarcastic values I didn't even write. This distresses me because I wasn't purposefully being a jerk, but rather myself. Geez, this is going to get to the point that I'm going to have to domineer the conversations where I nearly give someone a form before they're allowed to interact with me.

Sure, I can change, but I'm not the one getting offended or screaming at someone. I think the person who suffers from the offended opinion should be the one that tries to learn some basic coping skills. If someone told me directly to stop, I'll comply. I don't need to be punished with verbal abuse to learn the errors of my ways because I'm not doing anything wrong. From my perspective. There is only intentional and unintentional behavior, and I can't change my unintentional without intentionally removing myself from society.

Hmm, I like the idea of directly asking for permission to do things. Make conversation a hassle and then they'll think I'm being a smart aleck. n_n
This feels like a lose-lose situation to me. Yeah, I was thinking of expressing some of what you said in an apological entry to her but after reading how you got treated, I might make the situation worse from doing so. =(
Strange how hardly anyone apologizes to me for their negative and cruel behavior but I have to apologize and ask for forgiveness on every little thing that I do. The only one that ever apologized for their behavior was when my friend who was in a cranky mood said something to me. Surprisingly, I didn't take offense, but it's funny how things work out between us *Sigh*

Thanks for your comment. I was expecting to be ignored or yelled at. I'm prepared for the consequences if that happens.

Knowing this person, I don't know if she bears grudges or has an attention-span or not. If she was my mother, then I'll never live to see the day of her forgetting any of my transgressions against her. I know I can't forget what I done since I do feel slightly gulity for upsetting someone so fragile that managed to survive in this world. I thought it would be an NT thing, and I was wrong. There goes that irrational belief.

I don't understand the concept of friend though. Since everyone is just a random personality, some get along with me, most don't. Haven't kept up a relationship with someone that lasted over a year which is quite pathetic and I probably should be ashamed of myself because of it. =\

I'm thinking of unblocking and seeing how her future self behaves without discussing this bad moment. I'm expecting someone who has a lower opinion of me and will possibly fly-off-the-handle to something less severe than a simple keyword that she hates. I probably need to discuss this with someone that probably understands these things better but I'm mostly expecting a, "You're wrong and have to change your behavior to not who you are."-type of thing. As much as support for my opinion is nice to read, it doesn't help me deal with them all that well. Blocking is so nice and satisfying, like a weight lifted off your shoulders, almost like getting a spiritual high. =)

Anyway, thanks for talking to me. I'll be on my way to work on my regimen of avoiding situations where people get themselves upset. I don't upset them, they upset themselves by reading that I exist. Take care of yourself and don't let the herd mentality get to you. =)

OK, here it's my take on it, which may not be what you need to hear (I don't know your goals in life etc.), but anyway...

First let me thank you for posting your conversation, I like to analyze autistic stuff like that, it helps me discover my own flaws and work on them.

Did you realize you abuse smilies, there's barely any line by you without them (I do it to )

She is trying to have a laid back conversation, talking random subjects and giving comments, while you are just trowing oneliners like you don't really wanna talk to her:
taruby (2006/07/02 22:20:32): ... Ho hum.
taruby (2006/07/02 22:22:45): I don't know. I don't really pay attention to the hits...

Then you acuse her of belittling the other artists, something she never did:
taruby (2006/07/02 22:23:35): most people = worst artists?

Notice how you minimize the number of words you use, when you could have said: "are you saying most people are worse artists than you? that sounds rude... blah blah"

She lets that one slide by, and a couple of other heavy comments by you, but then you come up with this:
taruby (2006/07/02 22:27:31): Don't quit your day job. n_n;

This is basically calling her work crap, and she reacts as expected from somebody who's been working her ass off.

You keep attacking:
taruby (2006/07/02 22:29:05): Oh, really? (<-- Notice there's no smiley on this one, which makes it sound heavier)
taruby (2006/07/02 22:29:55): .... Good luck with that. (<--You keep implying her work is trash)

She keeps trying to bring the conversation back on track and on the way gives you the best advice you could ever get:
Allison S (2006/07/02 22:30:45): u should work on that

You start writing things that never happened:
taruby (2006/07/02 22:31:15): If you know what you're doing, why do you need my input?

This is just stupid:
taruby (2006/07/02 22:31:57): Talking to me is about kin to asking for my opinion. (<-- Talking to other people is a basic need of NTs... and she never asked for your input... as far as I can see, of course)

And this is very true:
Allison S (2006/07/02 22:36:44): stupid coments about someones lifes work and ambition is worse than petty words

Telling her that her work is not worth any money is much worse than "f you" which is basically a meaningless phrase.

Anyway I think you already know what happened there, NTs have feelings that are easily hurt by us aspies, you should work on your conversational skills if you want to stop hurting them. Of course, that is very hard to acomplish for us and the rewards aren't that nice considering we like to be alone, so it's up to you to work on it or not. And to wrap it up, you better not talk to someone if you don't feel like it, your dislike for conversation will show thru even if you try to hide it.

PS. This has happened to me many times, it's like Josh Hartnett said "I just never know what to say" and I end up talking s**t.

Thank you for disecting the conversation in a reasonable manner. Someone to explain things from her perspective was what I was looking for. Now that you have thoroughly pointed out how 'bad' I was, I lost my overinflated ego. Didn't want to start any conversations with anyone else I care about before getting it busted, thank you.



I usually take forever to type in a dynamic environment, and people who use AOL speak or shorthand generally can say 10x as much stuff as I can. Trying to keep up causes me to write shorter sentences to keep up. >_<



Thank you, that explains it. I was subconsciously not desiring conversation with her and said things without examining what's going on. Thinking about it, most everything I said was related at other people and situations that just appeared in my mind that is related to the conversation.

I think you hit the nail that I don't have to respond to what people say and just keep these thoughts to myself if they emerge.

The only thing you missed, and it may seem insane is that she did open herself up for my opinion with these words:
"how many do u get?"
"so u think thats good or bad?"

Yes, after looking through the logs, I can see she wasn't being general but was talking about a one-time thing. But, the speed of the conversation was too fast for me so this permissive state did stay in the back of my head and appeared as a thought. n_n;

I don't know if it happens to you but when you're trying to think quickly, you'll rush for the first piece of information that appears in your head. If you're typing, then you'll get the first thought out before hitting enter. n_n

Thank you. Too bad you didn't give any opinions on whether I should pretend this hasn't happened or if I should bring it up and try to work on it. (I did the latter a couple times, and it mostly has made the person even angrier with me so I'm hesitant to try again). >_<

That was such a respectful and good analysis of the conversation, I'm impressed. Good job.

Hi taruby

FWIW, having read the dialogue a couple of times, I'm tempted to say that this all reads to me like she came online feeling a bit demoralised about her efforts and her perception that it wasn't valued by people out there. I.e. 'sigh...websites are annoying...number of hits kinda crappy' etc.

In a typical NT covert way she was begging for your reassurance and comforting words. I think you were supposed to read between those lines and come back with something anodyne and supportive like 'yeah, it's hard when people don't appreciate your artistic talent, but hang on in there...you're really good at it/you've got a great site'.

Instead, you replied with a distancing/disassociated 'ho hum' which can signify or come across as 'Yeah, so, and do I care?? No.' .

Ho hum!!? When she was looking for friendly, engaged-fellow-artist support, empathy and ego strokes!

It seems to me that the convo was doomed from that moment. Because the lady didn't get the reasurance she was looking for, she was subconsciously disappointed and would have picked on ANYTHING you subsquently said, just to 'pay you back'.

I hope you don't mind me saying this, it's not personal criticism of you or what you wrote - simply an observation based on years and years of watching NTs get themselves all het up over perceived slights (and, similarly, being at the receiving end of their annoyance/anger). It's all because THEY rarely say what they actually mean, YOU are supposed to read between the lines and respond to THAT, rather than their actual words. Then they blame you, most unjustly, when you respond literally to what they ACTUALLY said.

As to repairing the situation...depends on a number of things: how much do you value her friendship? Does she know about your AS status? (you could explain briefly that sometimes it causes misunderstandings that you don't mean etc) Do you see her in your future in any way?

Whatever, my own personal policy is to do my best to clean up messes as quickly and calmly as possible, to try and smooth ruffled feathers...and then move on, with or without the other person! I think an expression from you about how you realise you got it wrong and that you're sorry if you inadvertantly hurt her feelings would be very useful.

good luck.

Oh god... now I did the same to you, I think I hurt your feelings... I better start a new thread to ask what should I do to patch things up with you... but then again, you're an aspie so I hope you understand...

*smile smile*

Actually it's a good thing. Usually I develop a superiority complex that gets bigger and bigger toward a certain person or group of individuals that react in a violent manner toward me, and if it doesn't pop while I'm talking to someone else; I sometimes relate my encounter with that previous person or group to a total innocent. It's not nice for me to be that way and you did a good job popping it.

Now the third dialogue seems to be a parody of my confused plea for advice. Kind of funny in a way, I guess you are saying that I'm asking the wrong person for what to do in that area. I can understand. I'm not good at telling people what they should do either. n_n;

@luipin: Professionally, what her professors educate into her brain are useful. Emotionally, I wouldn't know. I don't value her company as much as I value not having extra enemies that might come stab me in the back. u_u

The way you speak of interaction of how I mis-started the conversation kind of makes sense, although I'm only used to the stereotypically conversation starters of "hello's, how are you doing, and are you busy?". <-etiquette I'm used to. Informal jump cause me retreat so I can formulate a advantageous position to estimate the enemie' surprise attack.


I'll do that, thank you.

It's just that in my experience the missunderstandings arise from using too few words to explain my thoughts. That's why I pointed out the emoticons issue, because we use them to avoid explaining ourselves with words. In a messenger I always take my time to reply (a minute or so) and they usually wait in a good mood.



As Lupin explained above, the problem was not the word "hobby", that was just a small detail in the conversation, the real problem was that she came to you feeling down from getting low hit counts and thinking her work may be crap and you confirmed that repeatedly in an emotionless way.



First, you shouldn't have let it go that far, in the future try to stop the conversation as soon as you notice you are being missunderstood. As for "if I was you", I wouldn't block her because as you said, it's sad to end it, especially knowing your aspiness caused the problem, that's why I recently unblocked a friend of mine too, I don't wanna be a social failure. It may also be rude to pretend it never happened, so I would come back in a friendly mood, pick up the subject again and show I changed my point of view, something like "so how many hits are you getting now, I hope it picks up soon, blah blah blah..."



...but Taruby has clearly stated he doesn't like her art that much, so this is what I don't advocate, learning social skills is like learning to ride a bike or drive a car, it's a knowledge you add to yourself to use when you see fit, it doesn't imply lying, it's just a different way to express the same you. When you start lying to be more likable, that's when you stop being yourself and you don't want that, like you said:




hmmm, well, we may not have the perfect answers, but can be sure no one will understand you better than fellow aspies.

I'm glad I went on to Fernando's post before replying, because my comments would have been much the same. I only have one thing to add. I think you missed a switch of topic in the conversation:

She had switched from discussing the quality of her comic to her abilities as an illustrator. She said the comic was only a means to an end, to become a better illustrator. When you told her you doubted that people would pay for it, I expect that meant to her that you said not only that her comic is crap, but that she has no talent in her chosen field in general. She probably expected you to pick up on that shift in emphasis from the specific (her comic) to the general (her talent as an illustrator). People do have that sort of expectation, there is nothing to be done about it. She was actually more explicit than most, referring a second time to her job as an illustrator. At that point you told her not to give up her day job, after she had just told you that although she is still in school, she already thinks of this as her profession, so this IS her day job. I am not saying I would have done any better than you in real time, but doing an offline analysis, I am not at all surprised at her reaction.

I would say you owe her an apology and perhaps an explanation. If I were in your place, I would explain that I had now realised how I got things wrong. Even though the insult was unintended, it may not be good to say so explicitly, because that could be interpreted as "you shouldn't be so sensitive, it was nothing". Don't try to apportion blame like an insurance adjudicator, apologise for your errors, leave it up to her to see whether or how much she contributed, don't ask her to do so. From most people's perspective, the expectation that you would pick up the shift in emphasis is reasonable, and if you tell her otherwise, that will be just another attack. Life isn't fair in that respect, if you want something better, you are on the wrong planet and will have to emigrate . If you discover a place where people have expectations that are more compatible with ours, please let me know, so that I can go there, too.

If I was interested in keeping in touch with the woman, I would warn her that I was likely to make the same kind of mistake again, because of not being good at picking up such shifts in emphasis. If she thinks it's worth keeping in touch anyway, good, otherwise just offer apologies for the insult, and say good bye. If you don't want to keep in touch, just stick to the apology, don't offer the warning, it would not be relevant.

I'd come to realize, long before I'd ever suspect that AS is what is wrong with me, that real-time communication, like instant messengers, chatrooms, IRQ, and MUD's, are simply the wrong method of communication for me - and, I'll be so bold as to suggest, the wrong form of communication for any aspie.


I say that, because:



I take too long to write.

I can't handle the short, stripped-down, stream-lined IM-speak.

There's too much happening at once for me to properly understand what is said.

I utterly fail to "read between the lines", and either miss the "hints", or read things wrong - I might mis-read a totally innocent remark as something that was intended aggressively; the aggression, real or imagined, only multiplies the stress of keeping up and prompts more mistakes as I get defensive over something beyond the grasp of my understanding.

There's not enough time for me to re-phrase things in more than one way (that is my usual insurance against mis-understanding what I'm writing by e-mail or forum.)

Under the pressure of time, I get sloppy and make terrible mistakes.

Not infrequently, I'd end up IM'ing people who are drunk or stoned and not themselves, and not realize it until damage has already been done. (If it's someone whose writing style is familiar to me, and given time, I can figure out that something is wrong, and that it's best not to reply beyond a virtual "pat-on-the-back.") Similarly, I'd find myself chatting with people who are emotionally upset in one way or another over something "IRL" (angry, scared, sad, depressed, anxious, whatever), and inevitably say the wrong things to make things worse, where a lengthier and slower-paced form of communication would have given me better hints ahead of time about the best way to respond.





Taruby's communication problems serve as a perfect illustration of why today's fast-paced, high-speed, instant environment is, I believe, the bane of all aspie existence.

May I suggest we opt for something quieter, more relaxed, more patient, and slower-paced, instead?

y.



Chat, IM, and telephone/videophone are BAD. E-mail is better, and forums and message boards are better still. Snail-mail would beat all electronic communication, if anyone had the patience for it anymore, while message-in-a-bottle-at-sea would be close to perfection.....