Being able to socialize

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I was talking to my Cog Nueroscience prof today. She told me that if you really work on something despite having a disability, you'll be able to master things better then other people who it might come more naturally to. I presented an example of having Dyscalculia and asked her if that person really worked on it, would they be able to master math skills better then most people, she said yes. Tho generally people that hate math, avoid it.

Putting this into the context of being able to socialize. Even tho we have aspergers, its not gonna prevent us from attaining the ability to socialize normally and understand people. Its just that we gotta work 10x harder on it then other people. If we do, someday we'll understand things better then many NTs. Tho the thing is that if we avoid it, we'll never learn.

For me, Ive worked so hard to get where I am now, Ive come very far within the last few years. One of my biggest goals is to be able to socialize and understand people like an NT can. It sorta reassured me that this is achievable, someday I'll train my brain to have what I want. If I work hard enough and never give up.

Im not sure how many aspies do wanna work their ass of their for years and years to attain this tho.

I wish you the best of luck in your goal, is it achievable, probably, I doubt you will ever see the same as an NT though, it would be interesting if you did.

It is possible to train yourself out of ASD traits though, as a child I was a profuse finger tapper, and got aggravated when told off for tapping.
My nan was a stubborn woman, and my uncle was severely autistic, mentally ret*d, although I think that phrase might be politically incorrect over here in my country.
She used to slap my hands every time I finger tapped until eventually I stopped doing it.
I used to walk with my feet pointing inwards a lot, and my P.E. teacher drilled that one out of me, I used to walk around school as normal (feet pointing inwards), and if the P.E. teacher came within view, I'd switch to walking like everyone else so he wouldn't pull me for it.
I had no idea at all what his problem was with me walking the way I did, when I pointed my toes forward and walked I got the urge to tiptoe.
Now I can walk either way it doesn't bother me and often switch to and fro without really thinking about it or being bothered too much by it.
So yeah if you can train the physical traits out of people I would assume you could do so with the social traits.

I guess I might ask her this question in the context of aspergers/autism, see what she says. She doesnt know about my diagnosis but she used to be a disability coordinator so shes very understanding to these issues. So telling her about my AS would be fine.

Were it me, I would have to ask her for references and background. To just make a blanket statement that if you try hard enough at something you'll be better at it than most seems an overly broad generalization. Even if she can point to individuals that have done this, she would still have to offer evidence that it applies to a wider population.

This is not to say that we cannot change and learn new behaviors. My problem is that i would learn to be "NT", or at least my current understanding of it, and then the definition of normal behavior would change. Then all the NTs would quickly adapt to the new social rules and I would have to go back and learn them from square one. This is an issue with autism. Many on the spectrum cannot generalize a learned behavior in a way that allows them to transfer it to new situations. So each situation must be learned anew.

i think NT's social understanding is overrated, they understand intuitively and seem to act on it without any conscious thought. doesn't seem a skill as such.

just passing through..

That's overly positive thinking. If your eyes are poked out, it doesn't matter how much you try to see, it's not going to happen. And even with things that can be worked on, the other people aren't going to wait for you to catch up. I guess it would depend on your AS, but making a blanket statement like that is plain wrong.

Social stuff is way more complex. It's not just doing one thing instead of something else, it's noticing clues, putting those together with other clues, forming an appropriate reply, with those things not taking more than a second or two, saying the appropriate reply in the appropriate tone of voice, always monitoring your body language and rapidly changing it accoring to the other persons clues.

Her statement sounds like a matter of faith or philosophy rather than scientific truth. (And, it's a very popular belief.)

The trouble is that if you criticize it then people complain that you're saying that no one should bother with any self-improvement. And that's not what I'm trying to say.

Yes, people ought to try for self-improvement -- that isn't a bad thing at all -- but the notion that you are 100% guaranteed to be to overcome literally anything is nonsense. Maybe you will overcome certain things and maybe you won't. You're not going to grow a new leg by meditation or hard work if your original leg is amputed. And that won't necessarily be a matter of not having tried hard enough. (And it doesn't mean you can't become very skilled with an artificial leg).

That mindset is also thoughtless, IMO: there should be ongoing consideration about what things need to be changed, and what the cost is. People often seem to have a behaviorist view, where personal internal costs are always irrelevant. If the price of not stimming is an ulcer, a factor in a breakdown, seriously decreased cognitive or other performance, or declining health, then maybe it's better not to eliminate that. (Or, maybe redirect it to the toes, or try to adopt less odd-looking stims if that is a concern -- that's what I mean by "reflective consideration").

By going to extreme levels of effort to 'normalize' I ended up seriously messing up my health in ways that look to be permanent. It also lead to the loss of many skills I had. I did end up more practically functional in the world, but I am by no means Mr. Perfectly Normal. And, on the whole, I've ended up with a loss in functionality (in practical terms).

Why did that happen? Because I believed the crap about, "you can overcome anything if you try hard enough." Something difficult? Push your brain 100% harder to do better. Tired? Tough sh**, keep pushing anyway. Feel ill and/or overloaded? No 'excuses,' keep going, push harder. Don't feel like that daily 10 mile bike ride in the rain for the 4th day in a row, on top of being badly overloaded for a month? Too bad, do it anyway. And a hundred other things, for years.

And, I've heard of plenty of other people who have had such things happen. Often they're older before they start seeing cracks in their functionality as they get to age 30,40,50,60.

So, self-improvement is fine, but it needs to be realistic and not fanatical -- which IMO is less if you're getting advice from people who don't share the problem. I think/hope that a healthy level of self-acceptance is a good buffer against that. People need to have a basic level of self-respect, which unfortunately seems less common than normal amongst ASC people I see around here and elsewhere (not that I'm so great at it myself). (Maybe it's common amongst disabled people in general?)

Ok I didnt exactly present her explanations in the most accurate way. She had scientific basis in explaining this, I just dont know precisely what it was. I will ask her specifically pertaining to aspergers, maybe her responce will change? But I do know that aspies can learn how to function in a specific enviorenment but when the enviorenment is changed, they have to relearn it. But unless you go to a different country, much of the social ways stay the same. Like how to make eye contact, how to greet people, what peoples expressions are saying, how to speak, how to indicate certain things. You'd just use those skills and tweet it to whatever situation. For me, I intend to stay in the US within a certain general geographic area.

But another thing for some aspies if you just sit on the couch or in front of your computers all day and do nothing, dont try to go out in the world and basically work your butt off, your never gonna get anywhere. In the end take whatever philosophy you want, I was raised to believe in the hard work ethic, even tho ive doubted myself every step of the way, Im still gonna continue to work my butt off probably till Im old and feeble trying to make something outta my life.

I do spend all day in front of my computer. Now.

I won't lie, I have spent a lot of time in front of it for a lot of my adult life (because it was how I made money and socialized), but I also spent a lot of time trying to get the education and the jobs and while it happened to me at a later age than it did Apple_in_my_Eye I still hit a point of burnout beyond which I have not had the same capabilities - and while I thought this might be in my head I checked with a friend and she gave me a list of changes she noticed starting around the time I hit burnout.

I have also apparently (if this past weekend is anything to judge) lost at least some of my socializing skills. I'm not sure if it's temporary or permanent, or if I can relearn, but whatever. I'll deal with it.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to work hard, and I'm certainly not going to critique that. But don't assume that someone who isn't apparently working as hard doesn't actually or doesn't want to work as hard or harder, or hasn't done so in the past, even to the point of self harm.

Apple_in_my_Eye wasn't advising you to not do anything, I do not think. I think he was advising you to be careful about how hard you push yourself, because burnout is a possibility. That's all.

I got myself through the toughest undergrad physics program in the USA, with increasingly ill health (undiagnosed heart condition), while working a job through about 2/3 of it. No diagnoses, no accommodations, no nothing. And no social help beyond what I forced myself to do & figured out on my own. I know how to work hard, and have done it.

You're just going to have learn through hard knocks that it's not nearly as simple as that prof. is saying.

Sitting in front of computers -> programming, writing, science, online socialization etc.

Working hard isn't the same as working effectively. Beating down a wall with your head is a lot harder than getting a machine to demolish it.

Given that you're told for most of your life by most people in it that your way of being is utterly wrong, that you can't be happy unless you do things you hate (and that won't actually make you happy), that you're just being an ass / stupid / lazy (another side effect of "try harder"), that everything is your fault, that people like you would be better off not existing, yeah, it seems likely.

I've picked up little bits of social awareness and I have more understanding in some things than NT's. I think it is achievable but very difficult.

I think that if we had a real program going like they do for people that have really serious disabilities like recovering from stroke. Neuroplasticity works for these people. Now I'm not sure if that is because NT's have more plastic brains than us or because the more severe something is the better these exercises work. Like for example when someone really overweight who does the right exercises and has a good diet will lose weight much quicker than someone who doesn't need to lose that much weight.

Whatever you put more focus in you will get better at. I think the problem with us is the long periods of isolation from the world. But I can understand it. I prefer to be on my own too. It just feels more natural to me.

And people that are blind may be able to see again. If one area of the brain isn't working then other areas of the brain will kick in.

When I switch into my "social mode", like when giving a presentation at work, I can wow groups of people into thinking I am the most warm and friendly person on earth.



But it is entirely fake and takes all my energy for a week or so. I have learned to completely fake it, but it has taken me 30 years.

Well i personally don't think trying to force myself to socially interact correctly is going to help anything....i mean there are things i have improved on. But I really don't think I will be able to learn perfect social skills and understand them better then typical people.
For example there is the eye contact thing.......its not that I don't want to look people in the eye, or that I forget to do so. Its more like it makes me feel extremly uncomfortable to the point of being unbearable thats not something you can really practice away.

Self improvement is a good thing however I think that statement takes it a bit too far, and that sort of thinking might lead to people to accuse anyone who is not constantly working to gain skills they don't have is just being lazy.

I think she's got herself too full of the "can-do" culture. There's some truth in what she says, but a one-legged man isn't going to beat a biped in a running race. Might be fun to ask her what she thinks the limitations of her method are. All methods have limitations.

I hate to burst that bubble of optimism, but no.

There is (and always will) be a difference between instinctual behavior and learned behavior.
For NT people a lot of social skills are instinctual, whereas AS people may have learned them. There really is a fundamental difference there. Look at the way young NT kids interact. No one teaches them to make eye contact, share interests with others etc. It is all instinctual.

You can get "better" by learning more but it won't be the same, nor should it be.