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wavefreak58
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22 Feb 2011, 10:42 am

The psychologist that diagnosed me thinks I have a future in some form of autism advocacy. But I'm conflicted. I definitely see a need. I think I might have something to offer. But, speaking selfishly, I see my psychologist charging $100/hour for his services and I see "advocacy" as volunteering my time.

Something really bugs me about that. I am always on the consumer side of the equation. I have followed a path that did not give me a PHD or any other marketable asset relative to autism. So I am STILL on the receiving end of 'expert service providers', still following, still incurring real costs, still having to fight my way through the morass of a culture fully (and inexplicably) invested in economic measures of success. If I struggle with this paradigm (and I do), I can hire a life coach for $75/hour. Or a professional organizer for $100/hour. I can go to therapy, get medicated. You get the picture.

Nevertheless, I expect I will in the end be finding ways to "advocate". I see people in the early stages of adulthood going through much the same things I did. I can see doing something to help them avoid some of the pitfalls that regularly derailed the flow of my life. I see people struggling with social services, insurance companies, health providers, ignorance of their peers, employment discrimination.

So I think I need to start with those that actually need advocacy. What do my fellow aspies and auties need from another of their own? What does an advocate do? What do YOU need an advocate to do?


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Mindslave
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22 Feb 2011, 11:39 am

The most important thing is to be able to advocate for yourself. Once you can do that, then the question becomes whether or not you want to speak for others.



kfisherx
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22 Feb 2011, 12:10 pm

Awesome! I love the way your therapist thinks and agree 100% with him. The $$$ potential for this time of work is HUGE. Autism is a 35-60 billion dollar a year issue for our country and the numbers are only going to get bigger. Why not have a chunk of that?

I have started a few advocacy things in my area including the Big Brothers (Type) program that I am doing with my 13-year old ASD kid. The results from these programs have been overwhelmingly positive and while my services are being offered for free there is easily justification to charge. In fact the parents of my kiddo have already handed me a gift card for a considerable amount of money for my work. (they insisted)

The good news (for you) is that there exists some really, really good resources already on this subject of ASD and self-advocacy.

Autism speaks wrote a series of articles that are decent
http://www.autismspeaks.org/docs/family ... vocacy.pdf

Dr. Paradiz wrote this curriculum which I think is going to be more valudable than any other tool I could have. I have ordered this and intend to walk my kiddo through it in fact as well as teach from it at ASAN meetings..

http://www.amazon.com/Integrated-Self-A ... 1934575402

There are also conferences that you might consider attending...

http://www.ariconference.com/atlanta/workshop.html

The resources exist and the need exists in a BIG WAY to make this a very profitable and worthy career for anyone with the courage to make it happen.



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22 Feb 2011, 1:01 pm

Mindslave wrote:
The most important thing is to be able to advocate for yourself. Once you can do that, then the question becomes whether or not you want to speak for others.


My advocacy for myself falls in to the category of "just go away and leave me alone". I am fairly content with living on the margins. Operating from purely selfish motives I would simply fade into the background. I don't need nor want the complications. But I see a need and it is inconsistent with my own personal ethos to neglect a need within my power to fulfill. Exploring advocacy is an effort to find balance towards my predisposition for solitude and giving more to the world than I take.


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wavefreak58
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22 Feb 2011, 1:07 pm

kfisherx wrote:
Awesome! I love the way your therapist thinks and agree 100% with him. The $$$ potential for this time of work is HUGE. Autism is a 35-60 billion dollar a year issue for our country and the numbers are only going to get bigger. Why not have a chunk of that?


I do see the money pot getting big. It's a bit disconcerting. Once big business gets involved, it becomes easier for the initial motivations to get muddied and compromised. I suppose its just something to be dealt with.

Thanks for the links. One step at a time at this point. I have a history of starting things with a ton of energy and ideas and end up crashing and burning. I'm going to let this develop at its own pace instead of forcing it.


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wavefreak58
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22 Feb 2011, 9:51 pm

Is advocacy a dirty word around here? This dropped to page 2 awfully quick for something I thought might be important.

Meh.


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22 Feb 2011, 10:10 pm

wavefreak58 wrote:
Is advocacy a dirty word around here? This dropped to page 2 awfully quick for something I thought might be important.

Meh.


As with many posts, I wanted to come back to it later because it made me all thinky.

I have a lot of thoughts on advocacy. I've done some advocacy, although not related to AS at all. And I mean, I know that my writing online has helped a few people get diagnoses they needed (ADHD, one woman also found out she was AS when I talked about it with her in December), which is not a huge thing, but when you have someone who's still in high school getting the medical care and awareness and support she needs then and otherwise might have been missed? I think there's always room for more, if you have something to offer and a place to offer it, then by all means.

I'm being vague but I haven't come down to specifics or ideas. I'm not really the best person to ask about those, probably.



wavefreak58
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22 Feb 2011, 10:14 pm

Verdandi wrote:
wavefreak58 wrote:
Is advocacy a dirty word around here? This dropped to page 2 awfully quick for something I thought might be important.

Meh.


As with many posts, I wanted to come back to it later because it made me all thinky.



LOL. I love the phrase "made me all thinky".


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I have a lot of thoughts on advocacy. I've done some advocacy, although not related to AS at all. And I mean, I know that my writing online has helped a few people get diagnoses they needed (ADHD, one woman also found out she was AS when I talked about it with her in December), which is not a huge thing, but when you have someone who's still in high school getting the medical care and awareness and support she needs then and otherwise might have been missed? I think there's always room for more, if you have something to offer and a place to offer it, then by all means.

I'm being vague but I haven't come down to specifics or ideas. I'm not really the best person to ask about those, probably.


I get vague. It's all a big ball of overwhelming data right now. I'm trying to make sense of it. I feel like I should DO something.


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22 Feb 2011, 10:33 pm

wavefreak58 wrote:
Verdandi wrote:

As with many posts, I wanted to come back to it later because it made me all thinky.



LOL. I love the phrase "made me all thinky".


I tend to make with the Buffyspeakage sometimes. Usually after I watch some, but I haven't watched any lately. I do not hate the silly wordplay, though. I remember reading the scripts and what it did to my speech - which is to say I talked like that all the time. :)

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I get vague. It's all a big ball of overwhelming data right now. I'm trying to make sense of it. I feel like I should DO something.


I hear that. You don't have to do something right now, you can be thinky too. :D



kfisherx
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23 Feb 2011, 12:05 am

wavefreak58 wrote:
Is advocacy a dirty word around here? This dropped to page 2 awfully quick for something I thought might be important.

Meh.


??? You said you wanted to take your time. What else do you want from us?



wavefreak58
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23 Feb 2011, 7:10 am

kfisherx wrote:
wavefreak58 wrote:
Is advocacy a dirty word around here? This dropped to page 2 awfully quick for something I thought might be important.

Meh.


??? You said you wanted to take your time. What else do you want from us?


Silly. Taking my time isn't the same as me taking your time. :P


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anbuend
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23 Feb 2011, 7:22 am

I'd be very wary of taking money for advocacy work. I've seen that make people ineffective advocates before. For instance, I knew a self-advocate once who as part of his employment at an agency that regularly screwed over disabled people, was supposed to keep watch over a particular self-advocacy group and make sure that the nondisabled facilitator wasn't exerting the wrong kind of control over the disabled people.

There were a couple of problems with this. One, I don't think it was a coincidence that they picked someone who was blind to do that job. The facilitator's unethical control stuff was all happening over purely visual channels, so he literally could not see what she was doing to people -- the looks and gestures that told them to shut up when they had a real issue to discuss, other things like that. Two, when I brought all this up to him in private, he started getting really twitchy. He told me he really didn't want to hear any of this. Eventually he said "Look, I really like my job, and that facilitator is my boss, so can you just not talk about this with me anymore?"

He was also in general an extremely passive person, and was easily walked all over even when he did see what was going on. Many professional self-advocates are chosen to be passive mouthpieces of the opinions of the nondisabled professionals, or chosen to have very mainstream attitudes towards disability (so that they will always make the same decisions the professionals would make anyway). And accepting money only complicates things even more, making people feel beholden to whoever the money is coming from.

In order to do real advocacy work you have to have a strong sense of integrity and ethics, otherwise people will walk all over you even if they are praising your "wonderful little advocacy skills" as they are doing it. You have to have the capacity to stand up to people in tough situations. You have to be able to remember not to believe everything you hear from people with a vested interest in hiding things. You have to know what to look for in many situations -- for instance, self-advocates who work to close institutions have to either have extensive experiences in the type of institution in question, and/or be trained to spot the little things when they go in, and not to be swayed by, say, good decor or extensive activities/beautiful grounds/swimming pools and other "luxury" things, and to remember that on tours they're generally shown the best parts of the place only. They have to be aware of the subtle methods of control that can exist in the "best" institutions, and the lack of freedom that still exists there, rather than being wowed by "innovative" ideas in how to run institutions, or by "improvements" that don't address the fundamental power structure of institutions. Otherwise they will simply uphold the status quo, and when disabled people put their stamp of approval on something it's much harder to show it's a bad thing.

That's another thing about being an advocate -- people will always be looking for you to approve things because it makes them look good to say that a disabled person likes it. I almost always say no to such opportunities even when I think I would approve of them, because I know it's essentially a marketing tactic and I don't want to be used in that manner.

There are all kinds of areas where advocacy has to happen, and I'm not even capable of listing them all here due to the fact that it's mostly an open-ended question. Not all areas of advocacy are traditional or done in traditional manners. See:

http://www.autistics.org/library/self-advocacy.html

I might try to come up with a list and post it later, but don't hold your breath. I'm in a noisy, echoey, bright (fricking enormous plate glass windows everywhere across the entire front of the building) hospital lobby after doing yet another sleep study (finally found the right ventilation settings to handle both obstructive and central sleep apnea, yay), and my brain isn't the best it's ever been. (Although it may be the best it's ever been after waking up in the morning given that I could actually breathe all night.)

Oh also beware of associating yourself with organizations by/for professionals and parents, in the capacity of self-advocate. Much like the "stamp of approval on a particular service" thing, this is a situation where 9 times out of 10 (whether it's always intended or not) you're being used as a way of showing that the organization has "progressive values" by having "actual disabled people" in mostly-token roles on it. There are situations where it's good to go in and change things, but without being very well-armored mentally and knowing exactly what you're doing, it's easy to just end up being used as a symbol and a marketing tactic rather than making true change for the people "served" by the organization.

It's not necessarily bad to work alongside an organization for specific activities though. That's what I usually do, since I'm unwilling to join even most self-advocacy organizations. (Way, way too much drama in my life without all that. Although for what it's worth, I've found far less drama in developmental disability self-advocacy than in autism self-advocacy. The main problem in DD self-advocacy is that nondisabled facilitators often control the whole thing. But when they don't, it's quite worthwhile. In the DD community we're a lot more mature as a community than the autistic community and it often shows. Seriously. Just the amount of less drama involved is staggering.) It can mean occasionally pairing with people who don't believe the same things you do, in order to work towards a common goal. For instance I have worked with really patronizing parents and professionals before in order to lobby for adult services: the goal was more important than who I was working towards that goal with.

But in general there's a lot to be careful of lest you just end up being used by someone to accomplish their own goals and ends that have nothing to do with the welfare of disabled people. It's not something you want to always just jump into without preparation and understanding of power dynamics around disability. Of course if you don't get used like that, you can learn along the way. I've just seen so, so many people who think they're making a huge difference in the world who are really just tokens and mouthpieces for other people. And when you're openly a self-advocate, people will be looking for people like you to do that with all the time.


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wavefreak58
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23 Feb 2011, 9:48 am

anbuend wrote:
I'd be very wary of taking money for advocacy work. I've seen that make people ineffective advocates before. For instance, I knew a self-advocate once who as part of his employment at an agency that regularly screwed over disabled people, was supposed to keep watch over a particular self-advocacy group and make sure that the nondisabled facilitator wasn't exerting the wrong kind of control over the disabled people.


I think this is the paradox of advocacy. As soon as any activity becomes about protecting vested interests the intent is corrupted. For me to devote large amounts of time to advocacy of any type means I can't do it for free. I have to find ways to deal with these conflicting interests without compromising the primary intent or settle for advocating from the margins on a volunteer basis.

Quote:
There were a couple of problems with this. One, I don't think it was a coincidence that they picked someone who was blind to do that job. The facilitator's unethical control stuff was all happening over purely visual channels, so he literally could not see what she was doing to people -- the looks and gestures that told them to shut up when they had a real issue to discuss, other things like that. Two, when I brought all this up to him in private, he started getting really twitchy. He told me he really didn't want to hear any of this. Eventually he said "Look, I really like my job, and that facilitator is my boss, so can you just not talk about this with me anymore?"


This is definitely not how I would handle it. I would likely have gotten fired from that position because I would make waves and piss people off.

Quote:
He was also in general an extremely passive person, and was easily walked all over even when he did see what was going on. Many professional self-advocates are chosen to be passive mouthpieces of the opinions of the nondisabled professionals, or chosen to have very mainstream attitudes towards disability (so that they will always make the same decisions the professionals would make anyway). And accepting money only complicates things even more, making people feel beholden to whoever the money is coming from.


Again, not me. I am not a passive person when I've got my dander up. That should be evident from the way I post here. I have a low tolerance for the sort of crap that people like to engage in when protecting their turf. This is both a blessing and a curse. I tend to irritate people when I shouldn't, but I can be very direct and cut straight to the heart of a matter. This trait has not served me well in a corporate environment.

Quote:
In order to do real advocacy work you have to have a strong sense of integrity and ethics, otherwise people will walk all over you even if they are praising your "wonderful little advocacy skills" as they are doing it. You have to have the capacity to stand up to people in tough situations. You have to be able to remember not to believe everything you hear from people with a vested interest in hiding things.


Here I see my Theory of Mind deficits as an asset. When on my guard, words mean far less than actions and results. I can't determine a persons true intent from their words and demeanor, so I must rely on the evidence of what is actually happening.

Quote:
You have to know what to look for in many situations -- for instance, self-advocates who work to close institutions have to either have extensive experiences in the type of institution in question, and/or be trained to spot the little things when they go in, and not to be swayed by, say, good decor or extensive activities/beautiful grounds/swimming pools and other "luxury" things, and to remember that on tours they're generally shown the best parts of the place only. They have to be aware of the subtle methods of control that can exist in the "best" institutions, and the lack of freedom that still exists there, rather than being wowed by "innovative" ideas in how to run institutions, or by "improvements" that don't address the fundamental power structure of institutions. Otherwise they will simply uphold the status quo, and when disabled people put their stamp of approval on something it's much harder to show it's a bad thing.


I have no answer to this other than learning from experience. Conversations such as this one are the first step. Listening to those needing the advocacy is critical.

Quote:
That's another thing about being an advocate -- people will always be looking for you to approve things because it makes them look good to say that a disabled person likes it. I almost always say no to such opportunities even when I think I would approve of them, because I know it's essentially a marketing tactic and I don't want to be used in that manner.


I hate marketing. I hate how it is used to paint pictures that range from idealized to utterly false.

Quote:
I might try to come up with a list and post it later, but don't hold your breath. I'm in a noisy, echoey, bright (fricking enormous plate glass windows everywhere across the entire front of the building) hospital lobby after doing yet another sleep study (finally found the right ventilation settings to handle both obstructive and central sleep apnea, yay), and my brain isn't the best it's ever been. (Although it may be the best it's ever been after waking up in the morning given that I could actually breathe all night.)


No worries. A list is secondary. The conversation is more important right now. I need to hear people's stories.

Quote:
Oh also beware of associating yourself with organizations by/for professionals and parents, in the capacity of self-advocate. Much like the "stamp of approval on a particular service" thing, this is a situation where 9 times out of 10 (whether it's always intended or not) you're being used as a way of showing that the organization has "progressive values" by having "actual disabled people" in mostly-token roles on it.


I refuse to be the token disabled guy. I suppose it could happen if I am incautious, but nothing raises my ire faster than an attempt to place me in such a box.

Quote:
There are situations where it's good to go in and change things, but without being very well-armored mentally and knowing exactly what you're doing, it's easy to just end up being used as a symbol and a marketing tactic rather than making true change for the people "served" by the organization.

It's not necessarily bad to work alongside an organization for specific activities though. That's what I usually do, since I'm unwilling to join even most self-advocacy organizations. (Way, way too much drama in my life without all that. Although for what it's worth, I've found far less drama in developmental disability self-advocacy than in autism self-advocacy. The main problem in DD self-advocacy is that nondisabled facilitators often control the whole thing. But when they don't, it's quite worthwhile. In the DD community we're a lot more mature as a community than the autistic community and it often shows. Seriously. Just the amount of less drama involved is staggering.) It can mean occasionally pairing with people who don't believe the same things you do, in order to work towards a common goal. For instance I have worked with really patronizing parents and professionals before in order to lobby for adult services: the goal was more important than who I was working towards that goal with.

But in general there's a lot to be careful of lest you just end up being used by someone to accomplish their own goals and ends that have nothing to do with the welfare of disabled people. It's not something you want to always just jump into without preparation and understanding of power dynamics around disability. Of course if you don't get used like that, you can learn along the way. I've just seen so, so many people who think they're making a huge difference in the world who are really just tokens and mouthpieces for other people. And when you're openly a self-advocate, people will be looking for people like you to do that with all the time.


Your cautionary observations are duly noted. These are the things I want to hear. I want to know what those being served think and need.


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23 Feb 2011, 10:52 am

I can't help it and please don't take offense but I think you might need to discuss with your therapist there might not be any compensation from the world for your struggles through your life with this. I don't actually believe that you don't know what advocacy is ... go to a local chapter and volunteer, easy. You might get famous one day but I'm not getting why you are kind of bating us to tell you how the world needs to hear your story. How to make this your new profession. The world needs to care enough to hear all of the stories of those who silently struggle. Write a book but don't think we don't hear the bating.

sorry



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23 Feb 2011, 11:29 am

alone wrote:
I can't help it and please don't take offense but I think you might need to discuss with your therapist there might not be any compensation from the world for your struggles through your life with this. I don't actually believe that you don't know what advocacy is ... go to a local chapter and volunteer, easy.


I can volunteer. But that limits what I can actually do, now, doesn't it? This is really the point. I can only do so much. The limitations on that are based on both my abilities and my situation. The situation cannot be separated from financial resources. This is an inescapable fact.

Quote:
You might get famous one day but I'm not getting why you are kind of bating us to tell you how the world needs to hear your story.


I don't really give a rip about being famous and my story is quite boring (Person grows up undiagnosed, struggles and survives. Gets diagnosed. Does better. Big woop. Read that story a thousand times in different flavors).

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How to make this your new profession. The world needs to care enough to hear all of the stories of those who silently struggle.


The stories of others are what needs to be told. Not my story.

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Write a book but don't think we don't hear the bating.


I don't see anything compelling about writing yet another "disabled people conquer their obstacles and are brave so read this so you can feel good" type book. I don't really have anything new to add to the conversation that belongs in a book.


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23 Feb 2011, 11:41 am

I appreciate it you didn't yell at me. I do see you are struggling with 'what to do the rest of your life' and it is hard. I honestly think it is very hard. But to find a way to fit AS into it and support your lifestyle and your family is just kind of icky to me. I think you should do what I guess everyone does at this point in your life, make choices. You have to internalize that you went a path you don't love any more and you are kind of stuck because it isn't fair to those who rely on you to run off and follow your dreams. Hard choices but to brainstorm how to market this new diagnosis to keep your lifestyle intact is just kind of against the grain to me. I don't think you mean it to be but it just doesn't sit right. I hope you find a way to reinvent and you can find what makes you happy. Thank you for reasonably answering me.

:?