The Truth (?) behind TOM and lack of empathy...

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I just had what I could call an epiphany.

It's just my opinion for the moment, and I might change my mind, but I think I might be on to something really important.

The whole idea of Theory of Mind and Autistics lacking it, and lacking the full ability for empathy has been, still is, and will be debated for a long time. But I think a great deal of the debating is largely misdirected due to a lack of accurate understanding of what empathy really is to begin with.

Sympathy and Empathy are two entirely different things. That much pretty much everyone agrees on, but what each of them really means is subject for a lot of disagreement. I don't understand this really, because there is fairly good history available behind each word:

Sympathy: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Sympathy http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?sea ... hmode=none

Empathy: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/empathy http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?sea ... hmode=none

"I sympathise," therefore means, "I feel the same about [whatever]."

"I empathize," means "I understand and accept how you feel" (even though you may not feel the same way).

That pretty much sums up the difference.

The idea that Autistics don't empathize as well as NT's stems from the belief (probably the correct belief), that in order to empathize one has to have the ability to consider a point of view other than one's own. NT researchers at some point saw in Autistic behaviors something they equated to a lack of empathy. This, they then postulated probably came from a reduced ability to envision points of view other than that of the Autistic.

Think about this though. Where did they get the idea that we can't empathize, or at least have a more difficult time with it than our peers?

My suspicion of where they got the idea comes from my own personal experience as well as the experiences of my three sons. All four of us, when faced with someone else who doesn't feel as we do about something, tend to have a hard time understanding feelings we don't feel ourselves. Because we don't understand it, we say things like, "That doesn't make any sense."

That kind of response is called "lack of empathy" by others.

But is it? Really?

Is it really any less of an ability than anyone else possesses?

What I'm really asking is whether NT's really posses any more empathy than we do. Unless you believe in human psychic abilities (and I don't happen to), nobody can read minds. Nobody can really feel anything someone else feels, or know we do unless the other person expresses their feelings somehow.

Is it really true that when NT's say things like, "I can empathize," that they really can, or have they just been conditioned and/or trained to say so?

The reason I'm asking these questions isn't because I don't want to accept that I might have a reduced ability most people come to naturally. The reason I'm asking is because I have MANY times heard NT's say these things to ME, and my children about thoughts and feelings they could not POSSIBLY understand, because they have never been through it, and many of their actions and words have proven they don't really "get it" at all.

I've heard this kind of thing so many times from NT's that nowadays, more often than not, I know what they're telling me isn't really true at all.

"I hear you! I get what you're saying! I totally understand...." when followed by actions so many times that belies their words, proving they DON'T really understand at all, has led me to the following questions:

Do we really lack empathy any more than NT"'s or are we just more honest about when we don't understand other's feelings?

Are we REALLY any less capable of Theory of Mind, or are we just less willing to say we understand other's points of view when we really don't?

Maybe NT's are just better at fooling themselves, and more willing to say whatever it takes to stroke people. Maybe (in general) they're more willing to lie about what they really think.

Could it be that Autistics maybe tend to be so honest about things NT's would rather not have revealed that it's easier to label us as being "disabled" than to accept the sometimes harsh truths they don't seem to want to hear?

As a test of this "line of thinking" I wonder how many of you have spent most of your life feeling as though you are surrounded with hypocrisy.

If so...

Why is that? How does that feeling come out of the inability to identify with others?

I don't think it does.

I don't see why it is that I lack emapthy if I have a hard time understanding how someone else feels about something, but someone who does not understand how I feel does not lack empathy? I mean the main thing I have noticed is its hard for me to express a lot of emotions so I don't know what to say to someone to make them feel better if they are upset for instance...I can give objective advice but that is different. But yeah its not that I don't care its more of an issue with expressing it.

I've asked NTs directly if they were faking their expressions of empathy. I asked them in a non-judgmental manner, so they would tell me the truth. Most admitted that they faked 90% of these expressions. I asked why, and they said it was the socially conventional thing to do, and everyone does it, and it's expected that everyone should do it. When you look at this way, you can say that faking empathy is just a conventional thing to do.

That's the expression side. The understanding side is different. NTs have theory of NT mind, but they don't have theory of autistic mind. Same with us towards them. So some apparently fake expressions of empathy may not be fake, but they may believe that they do understand how you feel, when they have applied their ToM to your mind. That's not going to generate accurate results. NTs don't have much ability to consider non-NT perspectives either. They only have numbers, so they run into fewer instances when their ToM applications generate inaccurate results.

This is brilliant, brilliant, brilliant! Exactly! This needs to get in the scientific literature on autism in some way very soon because that "no empathy" myth cannot be allowed to be perpetuated, it's just plain wrong!

Exactly. I cannot be empathetic towards someone who is in a situation that I've never experienced. I can only make assumptions, and I hate doing that.

I did have less empathy when I was a kid. Empathy is something one can be trained in so it becomes a skill. It was definitely not something I possessed in great quantities but there were glimmers rippling throughout my years on earth.

I have learned to step out of my own skin and into another's by thinking about them for a sec.

It's easier to see their point of view when analyzing their situation.

Last edited by ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo on 17 Jul 2011, 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

To quote myself from a recent similar topic:

Wow, wow, wow. Round of applause for this topic. Thank you Mr.Xxx.

I have often pondered this very topic and hadn't a clue on how to address it. When I have brought it up to my NT friends, it sounds (to them) that I am attacking. I have taken to explaining prior to bringing up topics such as these that I am really asking questions and attempting to understand, not criticizing (this approach seems to help).

As for me and empathy - I flat out can't lie. Especially when I am sitting in front of another who is pouring out their heart to me, expressing his or her feelings (isn't this, in fact, empathy...?). A lot of times I find myself much more empathetic toward children and animals (who for the most part, at least when in our care, are helpless and dependent on us). I see it as adults usually hurt because they made decisions that led to that hurt. Some adults hurt for other adults, who, unfortunately made bad decisions and ended up hurt (such as a son who drove drunk and died....the family mourns.) I have seen that I do have deep feelings and will shed tears when I see that something happened to people that they had no control over (such as the tornado in Joplin, MO). I've also seen that I have compassion and empathy for child soldiers and the tragedies happening in Sudan, but instead of sitting around saying, "Now, now, everything is going to be OK", I tend to get up and do something about it, even if just giving money and spreading awareness.

When an NT friend comes to me for the 15th time telling me she is sad and depressed because her job or relationship is bringing her down, I have a tough time saying "Now, now..." and giving a hug and a shoulder because she has the power to leave the job or leave the relationship - or make her existence a better one. Does that make me non-empathetic? Does that make me "wrong"? I've learned to say "I'm sorry you feel that way" but when I do, I make sure I try to put myself in a similar situation in my head so that I can be telling the truth in that statement.

As a child I would clam up and feel very inept and strange when someone around me would cry or feel sad about something...I hadn't a clue as to what I was to do. Could have had to do with the fact that my mother who is also on the spectrum (though never diagnosed) was that way with me...never a "huggy" mom. If I cried I was sent to my room. However, as I child I also had the wisdom to know a good solution to whatever was paining my friend and would attempt to 'help out' in that way, though I learned as an adult (and by reading "Men are From Mars, Women Are From Venus" - this one really helped me!!) to not give advise unless asked for it.

I have found that I do better at giving advise than a shoulder to cry on. But I have to say, if I was having a crap time of it, I'd want to know the way out, not sit and stew in it... Maybe that is the difference between AS and NTs, the amygdalas in our brains won't allow for stewing...they say "get the hell outta there!! !! !"

Thanks again.

This is just about spot on to what I'm talking about, but I have to say I object to the use of the term sociopath. I'm not implying that you believe it, but the way you present your thought makes it seem as though you might think at least a great number of people do. I have not found this to be true at all.

Sociopathy is in no way related to Autism, nor is any relation suggested by the Psychiatric community as a whole. I have never heard anyone make that reference in person, nor do I know anyone to have ever heard anyone refer to Autistics as sociopaths in a way that suggests we all are.

I'm sure it happens, but I am equally certain it is rare for anyone to equate the two. If I had my "druthers" I'd prefer that everyone stop making that reference as if it were common. Because it isn't.

I've only seen once or perhaps twice, someone online making such suggestions, and in both cases it was pretty obvious the people making the remarks were nut jobs. Not only did Autistics not them them seriously, nobody did. Other than a few other obvious nut jobs.

You're welcome!



I'm beginning to think of us all as a group representing the little boy in the story who hollers, "THE EMPEROR HAS NO CLOTHES!! !"

Nobody likes to admit that they're not always honest. Wanna get into some real trouble? Just start debating whether there really is a difference between a "White lie," and a flat out lie.

I don't care what color the damned thing is. A lie is a lie. But just about the only place I have ever found I don't get totally knocked for saying so is among other Aspies.

Thanks for the comments.

But to tell oneself one never lies might be a lie in itself.

Could be. I certainly won't say I never have. I have, but in the end, if pushed, I can't keep it up. In the end the truth always comes out anyway, so there isn't much point in perpetuating it.

By the way, another thing I've suspected for a long time might play into this thinking as well. I've long suspected that users and abusers are attracted to those of us who are easily duped, or who at least appear to be easily duped even if we aren't really.

That may mean that a lot of us are surrounded by people who are less than honest, because they gravitate toward anyone they think they can take advantage of. And that may explain why we see so much of it and tend to think that's what NT's in general are like.

Even if that is true, and I know there are a lot of NT's aren't as dishonest as we sometimes think, the fact that I seem to be exposed to it as much as I am tends to bug the hell out of me. Can't help but react to it when it's there in front of me as much as it is.

Of course sociopathy and Asperger's are related. They are opposites. Many times opposites are mistaken for one another. Sociopaths are good with social interaction, and Aspies are bad at it. Sociopaths blend in, and Aspies stand out. Sociopaths have no emotions, Aspies have an overload of emotion. It goes on and on. You might say not all Aspies are the same, but not all sociopaths are the same either. A sociopath is the extreme when it comes to passive aggressiveness.

A sociopath might have too much empathy which explains why they can con people so easily. They can understand what someone is feeling and then decide to not care. This is not a true lack of empathy. This is the ability to discern feeling in others, understand it and disregard it anyway. Or, rationalize it away by saying the other guy's feelings do not matter because they aren't as important as the sociopath's needs. It's more complicated than making a generalized statement like, "sociopaths lack empathy."

I believe what the researchers are keying in on here is "subconscious empathy" or the instinctual reading of the non verbal -- 'their feeling' enters into you via "the subconscious"- a two way non verbal communication that is processed in real time via the unconscious..

It isn't sympathy or a 'synthetic cognitive empathy' where this is processed intellectually."

In my mind, opposites are unrelated when it comes to personality types or Psychiatric definitions. But that's just semantics. Great points on the differences.

Sociopaths are intentionally passive-aggressive.

Autistics aren't, and I wouldn't even agree that it amounts to passive-aggression when it isn't even conscious. To me, what appears as passive-aggression in Autistics, is really just defense mechanisms at work.