Need help with Autistic son.

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My eight year old autistic son has developed a habit of pushing and shoving his five year old brother. I would estimates this happened about thirty times yesterday. The five year old cries most of the time when this happens. The five year old boy is a little on the dramatic side. Otherwise, he is a happy and very well adjusted neurotypical kid. In a way, the five year older is the complete opposite of autism.

I suspect that the eight year old boy is developing these behaviors due to allergies. The increase in behaviors coincides almost exactly with allergy season. Prescription allergy medicine as well as his doctor's recommended over the counter pills seem to help with the allergies and thus with the behaviors. I say "seem" because I can never be absolutely sure that the medicine helps with the behaviors.

The eight year old boy with autism is affectionate and loving. He has a strong need to be with people and needs lots and lots of hugs. He does well in school. In fact, in some areas he may be academically talented.

During the last couple trips to McDonald's, the eight year old boy with autism got out of the stroller, lied down on the ground and refused to get up. In addition, I could not get him to stop pushing, and shoving his brother. Consequently, I did not take the boys to McDonald's for two weeks because I was worried that someone might get hurt during the trip due to my autistic son's out of control behavior. Yesterday's weekly trip was aborted because my autistic son could not control himself on the way to McDonald's. Please keep in mind that this is supposed to be a fun trip for the boys.

I would appreciate your detailed answers to the below two questions.
1. Are these behaviors similar to your behaviors as a child?
2. At what point did you outgrow these behaviors?

1. I was never "out of control" as a kid, in fact the worst thing I ever did was casually step on my toys. If he's really out of control then autism has nothing to do with it.
2. I guess I outgrew stepping on my toys when I was about 11 or 12.

Maybe "really out of control" is too strong. He can focus on his special interests long periods of times. He has meltdowns at school. However, he never hits anyone at school. He also never hits mom or dad. The majority of the time his younger brother triggers his behavior by making annoying noises. This is frequently a deliberate effort by the younger boy to annoy his autistic brother.

Sorry, I don't agree- If it's being caused by something that triggers a melt down, possibly not being able to communicate what is bothering him properly, being affected by certain things happening to him (like the effects of allergies) etc. Autism has everything to do with it. This isn't just a kid who is taking a fit, this is a kid who lacks the control to be able to calm himself down, or lacks the ability to communicate in a better way, etc.


Puppygnu, my sister is 13 now, and she's much less violent, she was extremely aggressive when she was younger because of overstimulation, we couldn't really do exciting things with her because once she was at the top, she couldn't bring herself down, so we had to help her and sometimes it resulted in us getting more scratched up than normal. She's on concerta for her ADHID (I= Impulsitivity. She's even more impulsive than a child with ADD or ADHD) and that seems to help her behaviour A LOT. No, she's not over medicated, she's still her bubbly little self, she's just able to sit for 2 minutes instead of 2 seconds, and she's not nearly as violent or impulsive on it.

If it's typically instigated by his brother purposely making noises he knows will bother his older brother, I don't know if you're disciplining the 5 year old for that, but you should. If he knows it bothers someone, he shouldn't be doing it. When this happens, send the 5 year old to the couch or a step or his room if he has his own, and bring the 8 year old to his room and help him calm down. Quietly try talking to him once he's calm about what just happened and go from there, then go deal with the 5 year old if it's been 5 minutes, OR tell the 8 year old you'll come back when he's calm if it takes more than 5 minutes, deal with the younger one, and come back to the older one when it's time. This is what I would do. Give it a few weeks if you're going to try it, new methods don't work right away, it can take up to a month to properly test out a new method of behaviour correction. Hope this helps! You can PM me, too, if you would like to talk further about anything.

NT kids can be just as destructive and out of control, you can't blame autism on that can you? He might lack the ability to communicate well, but being violent still has nothing to do with autism. As for pushing kids around, he's 8 years old! He has autism and apparently a separate problem with an aggressive mind. I'm in the autistic spectrum so I think I should know.

I'm in the spectrum as well, thanks though. I also know that just because I acted and reacted a certain way to things, doesn't mean every child (autistic, NT and everything else that could affect them) will, since I educate myself and have an extensive background in childcare. "If you know one person with autism, you know one person with autism."

Yeah, there are several points where aggression can't be blamed on autism, but there are several points where it can- A meltdown can be considered specific to autism, this can most definitely cause violent or destructive outbursts. I wasn't saying blame every outburst on autism, I also didn't say to dismiss it, did I? No, I simply gave the OP some ideas on how to deal with it. If he's being aggressive because he doesn't know how to express himself, he needs to learn how to properly express himself, you can't expect him to know something he hasn't been taught yet. If the child can control themselves and communicate, and it's not a meltdown- No, you can't blame that on autism, but in the other cases, yes you can. Let me restate something from my other post. Quietly try talking to him once he's calm about what just happened and go from there. If an NT child were taking a fit caused by another child (NT of autistic) who was doing it for the entire purpose of getting on the nerves of the NT child, I'd do the exact same thing, put the instigator in a place for time out, remove the child taking the fit and wait for them to calm down, and talk to both. It's to get to the root of the problem and teach the upset child a better way of dealing with it (learning the signs that they're getting that upset, and to get away from the child, or get help from someone to stop the child from bothering them to that point, etc.)

To reiterate, Make sure the 5 year old is also being taught his behaviour isn't acceptable if he knows it will bother his brother that badly, and teach the 8 year old how communicate better or how to get away from it, etc. Because pushing people is unacceptable. If it's not a melt down and your 8 year old is simply just misbehaving (as in he has no issues communicating, he's not in a melt down, etc.) make sure he knows it's unacceptable to be pushing people. And for people who might miss me saying this in my post several times: No matter what the cause, make sure the 8 year old knows pushing and similar behaviour is unacceptable and work with him to correct the behaviour.

Last edited by twich on 30 Oct 2011, 3:52 pm, edited 3 times in total.

The annoying noises could be a huge problem for an autistic child. Noises that are just annoying for you may be extremely anxiety-inducing for an autistic child. From the perspective of an autistic child, certain noises may be like "death by a thousand cuts".

As both an Aspie and someone who works with children in a school setting I can tell you what I have seen. If your son is verbal you may try talking to him about the behavior. Also there are several great visual social stories that explain in pictures why we can not hit or push. One thing I have seen a lot of parents do is to attribute behavior to autism that is simply acting out. Autistic children are just as capable as NT children to act out simply because they do not want to follow the rules. Most children can tolerate at least a short time in time out. Even non-verbal autistic children I have worked with have learned to not hit or kick when given consistent time outs. Time-outs should be appropriate for the child's developmental age, not necessarily chronological age. No child should spend more than a few minutes in time out. Eventually with consistent time-outs a child will come to associate hitting or pushing with time out. This may take a few weeks though. The other thing my team always reminds people of is that eventually these children will grow up and be bigger. It is easier to stop behaviors when the child is smaller and there is less of a risk of someone getting seriously injured. The other thing you could try is removing him from the activity if he hits or pushes. The other choice may be to reward good behavior. Say you take both boys to the park or McDonalds. Explain before that if they are able to keep their hands to themself they will be rewarded with something of your choice. Use pictures or words to explain this to your son. At the end give out the rewards. if he pushed and his brother did not he may quickly come to understand that his brother will be rewarded and he will not. The important thing is to find something you think will motivate your son to change his behavior and do it consistently.

Meltdowns are different. Then it becomes an autism issue and not an acting out behavior.

hope this helps. remember that it is really ok for him to get upset about the consequences of his actions. It will benefit him to learn these skills now. Also if he is in school you may ask how the school is dealing with pushing. Some of the best results I have seen are when the parent and school do the same thing.

Since it's your younger brother making noise, it's probably bothering your autistic son so you should get the youngest to stop.

I appreciate that you took your time to explain such well thought out responses.

I am an NT 44 year old male. I can look back to when I was eight years old and recall how I responded when my world seemed out of control, frustrating, or meaningless. Although I was a relatively well behaved child, I had moments when I had angry outbursts. I also recall hitting other children out of anger. I would guess that my son with autism has more moments than normal when the world seems meaningless and frustrating. Sometimes my wife and I respond to my sons behaviors as mature and thoughtful parents. On other occasions, my wife and I do not handle things as well as we could or should.

In general, my son behaves a little bit better every year. He no longer urinates on floor when he gets mad, runs outside naked every couple days when he gets mad, or breaks things for recreational purposes. At the same time, he never has issues that many NT kids have. He learned to read with no difficulty before he was three, he could care less about television (We do not own one anyway.) His idea of entertainment are educational activities.

When I sit down and compare raising my NT kid and my autistic kid, I would guess that they are both just as difficult. Still, I wonder in my head if and when my autistic son will outgrow his meltdowns and his unfortunate behavior towards his brother. My hope is that some of you could relate your experiences as a child with autism or as a parent of an autistic child.

I don't know if you really grow out of melt downs, but a lot of people have learned to prevent them for the most part, I know I have meltdowns still, and I'm 27.. BUT I can remove myself from certain situations or avoid situations all together if I know they're more than likely trigger a meltdown or a shut down.

No parent is perfect, and you're probably doing a bang up job. As frustrating as parenting a special needs or a "normal" child, most parents get through it alright, and their kids are usually unharmed from the "mistakes" made. You're doing the right thing by asking for advice I hope hearing how my sister has grown out of it, or how my family has dealt with us and how I've dealt with kids in a childcare setting has helped, and I hope more people comment with more ideas

The fact that your sister grew out of her difficulties did provide me with some comfort. I appreciate your kind thoughts.

Who is the cute baby in the picture? This reminds me of my autistic son when he was just born. My son with autism had the need to cuddle almost from the day he was born. My NT child has very little need to cuddle.

Thanks! He's my nephew, about 1.5 months in the picture, just about 3 months now. My sister is a very touchy feely autist, we're actually polar opposites in almost every way but we're both on the spectrum. Our older brother enjoys hugs, but doesn't NEED them. He's in the middle and the only NT, my nephew is his boy. I'm glad I could provide some comfort. The key is to keep going, don't give up, and everything will be ok.

First, I am not an expert in any way, so please take my thoughts accordingly. With that said, I am almost wanting to question the autism diagnosis of your 8-year-old. The needing affection and presenting difficulty in public, seemingly deliberate, aren't consistent with autism as far as I have known. It sounds to me almost like another situation, which I believe is called ODD http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/opposi ... N=symptoms . Of the Autistics and Aspies I know, I can't think of any who have acted aggressively toward siblings, nor made a scene in public (as in the McDonald's lie-down situation). Most of us want to disappear into the woodwork, and are humiliated at the thought of anyone seeing a meltdown, etc. And we tend to be the victims of bullying and such; not so often the perpetrators. The fact that he likes hugs, is very foreign to me, as a high-functioning autistic. I have to work very hard to just be polite about it when someone tries to hug me, or even reach toward me. My natural response is to block or stop them, or flinch and cower back. That's a fairly classic autism trait, although I have no idea if it's a "must" for a diagnosis of autism.

Anyway, I think you're on the right track by looking here for answers, and I am confident that you will find a way to work with your son to resolve these things!

Charles

There's your problem. It's not allergies, it's this.

For a kid with auditory sensitivities, trying to bug them with annoying noises is like trying to annoy them by poking them with a cattle prod repeatedly. Certain sounds cut into my head and quite literally cause agony for me - and yet others are just fine with it.

I had a really rough time when my brother was younger and noisier (he's now 13). My parents kept telling me he wasn't trying to cause me pain - he was just trying to get my attention because he was fascinated by his older sibling the way younger siblings usually are. But when someone keeps repeatedly doing something that causes you pain and you tell them to stop and they won't, it's not hard to see why you might be tempted to lash out in return. To most autistic kids, another repeatedly making a stupid noise isn't just annoying, it's an assault on their mental wellbeing. Of course it's not meant that way, but that's how it feels to them.

On the good side, however, younger siblings get less pesky with age. By the time my brother was 8 or so I was finding him a lot more enjoyable to be with. We're now extremely close, more so than most siblings are.

You seem to be stuck with an older vision of what AS looks like. Many AS kids today ARE social and tactile, they just aren't very good at it, as the line goes. There are many different ways AS can manifest, and many different personalities it can be born onto. Way too many kids have been wrongly labeled ODD and it is a highly destructive mislabeling when it happens.

I sound kind of rough in that first sentence, my apologies, I'm just not coming up with better phrasing right now, so I think it is important to note that in a different world, the kind that existed mere decades ago, a child might have gotten so much negative feedback on his socialization and contact attempts that he might have turned it all off defensively. I often wonder how many older ASD individuals might have done that at such a young age they don't remember anything different. My son does things like; I could really see it as possible. But ... Many AS kids are born without any desire to interact, too; just not all, from what we see on Parenting.

To the OP, perhaps posting on the parenting forum, as well, would enhance your feedback. I will note that sensory issues can peak at this age, so maybe not only are the noises an issue, but the whole experience of a McDonalds. May find you need to take a break from that for a while.