the old empathy question/Baren Cohen

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Hi. The cornerstone of Simon Baren Cohen's thesis is that those with autism/autistic spectrum disorders do not display much empathy/ a drive to identify another person's emotions and thoughts, and to respond to them with an appropriate emotion. Some people with autism say they have a fairly good emotional antennae and disagree with this view. Any thoughts on this subject would be most welcome.

Its a common misconception.

People with ASDs have normal emotions they simply are incapable of displaying them naturally (that is without thinking about and intentionally causing facial expression).

You also have to remember there are difference severities of AS and each individual has their own strengths and weaknesses.

Those disagreeing probably have mild AS and are strong in emotional interpretation and emulation.

You also cant forget that people with AS over time learn through rote memorization to emulate normal emotional interaction so you cant rule that out either.

According to some theories, we're bad at empathy because we were so good at it early on that it was overwhelming and painful, so we started blocking it out.
It makes sense. I can't relate to my friend breaking up with her boyfriend because I never went through it, but if she feels something I have felt, and I can figure out what she's feeling, then it hurts a lot.

Hmm.. I seem to have noticed something similar.. its like theres a breaking point of emotional severity where anything past that gets nullified?

For example I might cry if a cute animal I just met dies but if a beloved pet does.. nothing happens?

I seem to be moved by small things, when something major happens I usually feel anaesthetised. I do offer people help if they seem down, if something bad has happened to them I occasionally get a rush of excitement. I think my tone of voice and facial expressions do convey emotion, although my face in repose looks sombre. In dangerous/ dramatic situations when other people panic I can remain calm and problem solve, and yet I panic at tiny things like staying over at a friends, sitting on a bus.
So many contradictions!!

Personally I'd agree with S.B.C.

I am pretty bad at empathizing with other people (and got an EQ of 12 ) – most of the time I feel like I've had some kind of emotional anaesthetic. It tends to be either all or nothing.

I remember a while ago a friend of mine told me how his fiance had dropped him and how depressed he was etc. I could see that he was upset and knew that the appropriate response was to be sympathetic and understanding, and I did a reasonable attempt at this, but I did not feel for him.

Or like the pet example – my parents pet dog had to be put down. She was part of our family for 14 years and I loved her to bits. When she died, my Mum was totally distraught, but I could not cry and didn't feel much at all.

(The only exceptions to this are seeing or hearing distressed or injured children or animals, this upsets me a lot and my mothering instinct kicks in.)

However, I show my own emotions quite clearly and naturally. I've never had to work at this. This is also true of my children who are diagnosed autistic.

Still I'm not sure how much use empathy is anyway. So long as you can identify what state the other person is in and what the appropriate response is, do you really need to feel it yourself. Indeed, I suspect that there are situations where it's probably an advantage to stay emotionally detached and clear headed.

i just dumped my bf of two years... no particular reason, other than i just never felt he got me (well, there were some other more superficial things but the biggie was loneliness in a way)... he was accepting of my quirks.. tried to help me socially--despite his gawfs at my suspicions of me having aspergers (because it's autism IMO)... but i just got tired of trying at everything all the time...

shouldn't something feel natural? i realize there is a natural progression to emotions in relationships... and i enjoy them! but i find that i have limits on what i can give at times... and i guess ive never found someone who is wholely satisfied with that... and i guess it doesnt help that the emotions and gestures i have trouble recognizing are more threatening ones--like i always think people are mad or looking down at me... which really doesn't help with fights of any kind...

i guess i've broken relationships down to how we fight. cause i just don't do too well with these kind of emotional interactions... i'm told i get this distant blank look on my face like immediately after being riled up over something... it takes all of me to say nothing cause when i try and grasp at the words, they just come out as babble... but i find it emotionally odd how these (bad) times in relationships mean much more to me than the good times... and im not talking like particular inccidents... just the flow of how the relationship functions during either of these states.

so during this huge breakup... he was crying.. and all i could do was sit there and fidgit... i couldn't even look at him at all.

what did i do after he left our house and drove 2hrs late at night to go back to his parents house?

dishes... and im still trying to find some sort of remorse amidst all this relief... not to say im happy... im actually havin a down period.

so yeah, guess i got emotions, just don't always know what to do with em.

Noting that I am undiagnosed, I guess I agree with SBC - and yet I don't. On the basis of my own experiences, I have difficulty intuitively grasping what other people have on their minds, but I am interested in figuring them out. At the same time, I am comfortable not having to talk myself, and listening to other people. So I hear from people that I'm a good listener, and that I can keep secrets (which I do - I hate gossiping). So on that level I guess I am empathetic.

I totally agree with Fresco, in that I can get ridiculously sentimental and emotional about stupid things. Like losing my favourite alarm clock or something. I might feel very sentimental towards my own tooth, if it's got a hole in it (nothing to do with the pain as such). Or towards kitchen appliances if they're broken - that kind of stuff. But I may have real difficulties empathizing emotionally with the pain close friends might be going through - which on the other hand makes me useful to have around because I remain calm and may be able to calm them down.

I agree with Cohen. I grew up a very strong trait of not reciprocating with others emotions. Such ss during a funerals for example I observed everyone putting their arms around each other wheras I was a bit stand offish and felt extremely uncomfortable about relatives coming up and cuddling me, it just could not help it. But there were a couple of exceptions I got over-emotional and I was so grief stricken at a funeral of a cousin's I kind looked more like a kid having a tamtrum than someone grieving in the usual manner.
But there were other instances where I burst out laughing at funarals for little or no appearent reason.

Paul

I say we have emotions but

i) we're not good at expressing them
ii) we can express them in idiosyncratic ways sometimes, which means we are expressing them but nobody can tell
iii) we tend to react differently to situations that would normally provoke an emotional response in other people, or vice versa

I tend to keep my own emotions to my self, i've always done this, i don't like dicussing my emotions with other people and don't see why i should. This can make people think i'm stand offish or uncaring. I will sympathise with others and can react to social situations i recognise like some spliting up with their other half, or something, but i tend to give logical advice about emotional problems and to look at such things logically rather then emotionally. I often feel divorced from the emotions of others, or show my emotions in inappropriate ways, such as laughing at the wrong time.

I find this one of the most difficult "traits" of AS to understand.I am currently get DX,dont know if I am.

It just seems illogical to me that AS lacks "theory of mind"...(doesnt that mean we think everyone is like us?That they are not seperate but a part of us?"if so,how can we lack empathy....if they hurt I hurt.
I dont know why that is not true when I have been with family or "friends".I cant seem to "feel" their pain.I am very uncomfortable with peoples grief,have no idea how to hug or say the right thing...I can understand their pain intellectually and may try and give them "solutions" but I know most people hate this.I want to "fix" the problem.

But when I see a dead animal on the road or hear an animal in pain it makes me so sad,I can see their fear and pain at being hurt. When I am working with my disabled clients....I want to fight for them...as if they were me and I am them and they have no voice and I would have no voice and would want someone to speak up for me...isnt that empathy?When I use to read about the destruction of the environment,the civilians in Iraq,genicide in Rhawanda,animal testing...it hurts so bad I start thinking about killing myself because of so much pain in the world...isnt that empathy?

This is so confusing to me....I can empathize at a distance or when I can vissually remember feeling the same feelings or see myself in the same situation.I want to help people here and have been so greatful that there are other people here who have helped me...I can not believe aspies arnt empaths..

I'm not sure Simon BC is right entirely. He might be right about some people on the spectrum and not others.

I have feelings and I can understand other people have feelings and they might be different to mine (even given the same conditions).

I'm not sure about the theory of mind thing.

I had to learn the hard way that not everyone thinks the same way as I do or feels the same way in the same conditions. But I think all babies have to do this at some point. Separate their identity from their mother at least.

I do tend to assume everyone can understand things at the same level as I do until they let me know otherwise. This, I think, is kinder than assuming everyone else is completely ignorant or stupid. However some people don't like to admit when they don't know or understand something - but will correct you if they do - so the assuming they know nothing approach works better for them.

Except I can't tell which is which of these kinds of people - until whomever it is that you are in conversation with - says something which clearly indicates they haven't understood anything you said previously - even though they had said "yes" when you asked them if they understood. And I find this irritating.

He seems to be saying that we lack emotional depth to our empathy. I think that might be true. I think some of us might have difficulty or a delay in identifying emotion and responding to other people's emotions.

And yet, I know that I can empathize very well in the sense that I can accurately guess what is going on in another person's head and respond appropriately. But there does seem to be a delay or difficulty in feeling the emotion depth.

This is the first time I've really given this thought and admitted it to myself. Which feels a bit horrifying.

I've been worrying lately about being emotionally 'flat' - particularly because most of my 'deep' emotions used to result from more-or-less obsessive crushes in my teens and early twenties, and those are going out (fortunately so, perhaps). Like Fresco, in times of crisis, regardless of whether this involves pain or grief to family or friends, I am _excited_ more than anything else. While at the same time I can get idiotically sentimental about the smallest of things.

But I'm not really horrified by this. My emotional responses may be weird - but in general I do want other people to be happy instead of unhappy. I don't have to cry at funerals to be a decent human being.

About theory of mind. I recall that when I was a kid - maybe three years old - I was actually wondering whether the cat and my parents and everybody else had an "inside" like I did, or whether they were just things. I couldn't quite figure it out. At some point I decided to assume that they had "insides" but some nagging doubt remained. So I guess I have a theory of mind - just not a very instinctive one.

Best to not think about issues like these too deeply. I'm reading a lot about consciousness, and mind, lately - and at some point I was fairly convinced that whatever consciousness was, I didn't have it. This was quite confusing.

In any event, I suppose a possible weakness in my "theory of mind" may be that I can get obsessively conscientious. Like lying awake in bed for days because I accidentally shoved someone, etc. Or obsessing over nasty, evil, unpleasant thoughts. It seems that I naturally assume that everybody else can look into my mind and know exactly what is there. The idea that the image people have of me is not identical to the real _me_ does not always come naturally.

I think my difficulty is more with expression than actual empathy. I care, but I don't know what to say or do. I have to think long and hard about what to say and then when I say it, it's usually brief and kind of flat. Maybe this is because the situations are pretty rare and I don't have practice with them like I do more common social expressions. At times, I even feel a little anger at a person for putting me in this awkward situation, but I know that anger is irrational and has more to do with me feeling ill-equipped than the other person. I've gotten a lot of emails, one today in fact, about someone losing a beloved family member or pet. Often my anger makes me not respond at all. I just kind of hope that they're getting the standard bombardment of comforting messages from everyone else that they spammed so they won't really notice mine missing.