Insufficient ToM to measure ones ToM

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So, having a better ToM gives one a better ability to more accurately know what other people are thinking and HOW they think and to predict how they'll react to certain situations (Including situations YOU create.). Well, what if a person's ToM is so low, they don't recognize what kind of theory of mind other people have and so they can't make comparisons to know how good their ToM is? It's like that "Dunning Kruger Affect" as explained at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2 ... ger_effect , which basically says that the more incompetent one is at something, the more incompetent they are at rating their competence and they will tend to overestimate their competence.

So, I'm looking out there and I'm thinking, wow, how would I go about knowing how good my ToM really is in comparison to other people's theory of minds? I mean, yes, I readily recognize my ToM is not perfect (I recognize there at a lot of things that I don't know about what other people are thinking), but I assume an imperfect ToM is fairly common so how good is it really?

Now, I've been blessed to see that a few people more easily/readily infer people's intentions than I do, so I can think that those few people probably have a better theory of mind, but what if those people just have a really good theory of mind or simply a "faster" theory of mind and I might happen to be average?

Jeez, I want to measure my ToM! I wish I had this testing done when I was younger which is when it really shows but, alas, no suspicions of autism when I was younger, just "language problems".

Today my psychologist asked me: "How is your mother?".
How can I answer this question?
So there was a long silence because I could not answer that question. She said: "It's too much information you have in your head right now."
Yes. Because thousands of pictures of my mother come up in my head and I cannot come to a/the final conclusion 'She's fine or not' like other people probably would. Results come faster up the less information is coming up in your brain which you have to process. And as autists are more detail-orientated I guess it might be possible that the inner overload of information slows your ToM down - though I am not really sure, if it is really the ToM I am writing about now.
Sally & Anne-test?

i am not detail-oriented. i'm a big picture person. in fact, focusing on details takes quite a lot of effort for me. sometimes i miss important details.

with regard to theory of mind (perspective-taking according to temple grandin), i'd just like to say that NTs can't read each other's minds and get into a lot of trouble when they try. i empathize based on what people tell me, sometimes on what they do. i'm not afraid to ask questions. i find it easier to empathize with physical pain than with emotional pain, though the latter has improved as i've gained life experience. now that i'm officially old, i have enough ToM to have a happy relationship with my husband and family of origin and get along passably in a people-oriented profession. maybe it's not exactly empathy, but it's enough understanding to be able to jump through the important social hoops.

Someone with a good Theory of Mind recognizes the accuracy of the communication via the non-verbal.

If it is a hit, say a prediction that you make in the course of the conversation, it is confirmed rapidly via the non verbal. Hence, you know it's a "hit" by a tone, gesture, pace of breath, etc; and also as to whether it is a "maybe," or a half and/half mix, etc.-- rapidly. But I've been wrong in this judgement via the non-verbal via their verbal. It's imperfect and it requires some contact with these individuals. You check or confirm your results by the subsequent actions in these scenarios. 90% accurate maybe, IDK...it's close, though.

This isn't easy for NT's as I've noticed the younger adults tend to miss ToM as often as they 'get it.'

It really takes conscious observation( effort) and practice to hone it in.

Cathylynn; you NAILED it:

And that's all anyone needs.

As for me, I suspect I have fairly high ToM. (I am NT.) My father was somewhat abusive and potentially dangerous. Subsequently, as a child, it was important for me to become uncomfortably conscious of his moods anytime he was home so that I'd know when to make myself particularly scarce. This heightened awareness of other people's moods didn't just go away when I became an independent adult. But, now that I'm officially old, I've learned it give it a rest.

In public situations and at work, I've found that my life is more peaceful as I take less note of the moods around me. I mind my own business and when I notice some dangerous or odd mood in someone in my vicinity, I either continue to mind my own business or I make a mental note to keep contact with that person to a minimum. I used to ponder on what's-going-on-and-why a lot more than I do now. A surprising outcome of this is, now, people respond better to me.

How does on measure the effects of a single electron?

it is quite possible to indirectly measure something once you become aware of its existence. I never knew of ToM deficits until I was DXd autistic. Now that I have an abstract construct, I have a model with which I can probe my environment. With this model I regularly find indirect evidence of my ToM deficiencies.

This is what I do, although it has been incredibly difficult to locate my limitations. I feel socially normal and then I completely misunderstand someone who explains carefully what he means and still take him to mean the literal (and opposite) meaning of his explicitly described intent.

I notice when I do it, whereas before I had no idea.

I agree with this. As I have aged, I've become much less anxious about whether my interpretations of what's been said (or observed, in the case of non-verbal cues) are accurate in the short term. I am now more patient about waiting-out the confirmation through the "subsequent actions"; without being anxious about it in the mean time. This works very well for me with my bosses at my relatively new job.

NT's may have a slightly better theory of mind than us, but not a complete one.
But I have found that people who become away of their poor theory of mind work on it and so become more aware and skilled at it than people who naturally have an alright one without even realising it.

In my previous posts, I have tried to suggest that ToM is useful, only up to a certain point. Beyond a certain point it becomes grandiosity.


Bluto, this is a critical aspect of ToM. You interpret someone's meaning in a certain way simultaneously understanding that you may be inaccurate. Anyone who believes they have perfect ToM is gunna be walking surefootedly in the wrong direction a lot, because they're not checking their take on stuff against ever unfolding revelation.

I'm curious where your "certain point" is. I'm guessing it's higher than "my point", lol.

One time, I was thinking about hijacking the airwaves that were being received by a local bigscreen TV at my college and play something that I thought was as offensive as possible, porn, but this female I knew who definitely is neurotypical stated that the men would probably go "Oh yeah!" and getting all sleezy while the girls would start feeling violated. I checked this against my understanding and it seemed about right, and I readily recognized that she had far better social insight than I, and this is likely due to "ToM". [As she clearly had better social insight then I, I asked what would be more offensive, but she refused to help due to moral grounds. ]

[I never actually executed the idea -- I was merely thinking about the plausibility and answering the question "What if?".]

I'm another one of us who was unaware of my ToM deficits until I was diagnosed, and have been using what I was told from that to build a picture of my deficits. I actually for a while didn't identify as having Asperger's, (but as not neurotypical) because I thought I had too much empathy (both sorts, not just the caring about people sort), to be diagnosed.