Autism = Schizophrenia - Hallucinations/Delusions?

Post Reply New Topic

http://www.schizophrenia.com/diag.php#common

Up at the above link are the symptoms for schizophrenia. Curiously, they make a provision for "pervasive development disorders" under letter 'F' and it says...

So, this seems to imply Autism is basically Schizophrenia without the hallucinations and delusions. Does this seem right to anyone? In my daily dealings, I seem to have the same affect on other people as I'd imagine a schizophrenic would and if it's because I have autism, then I suppose this would be true.

In my case, though, I'd imagine that it's more likely that I affect other people in the way a schizohprenic would because I have schizophrenia or I'm in the early stages. However, it seems most people with schizophrenia seem to be able to hold conversations like regular people, minus the severely hebephrenic/disorganized types...

Wrong.

What's you're trip, dude? If you think you're schizophrenic and not autistic then bite the bullet and get prescription for some anti-psychotics. If you get better then DING DING DING you've got your answer.

I currently only seem to have the negative symptoms of schizophrenia along with some symptoms that appear to be unique to autism (or maybe not...). I might develop the positive symptoms (Hallucinations + delusions) in the future, so it's a bit too early to speculate it might be schizophrenia and it instead might be autism.

And, there are no anti-psychotics for the negative symptoms.

Why are you worrying this thing to death? You keep going around in circles. I really need to find a new rut.

edit:

Whoops. Last line should say YOU really need to find a new rut.

Last edited by wavefreak58 on 10 Nov 2011, 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

That's because the negative symptoms are pretty similar to a discription of autism.

In regards to the difference between the two of them, well, that would require some understanding of the cause. Which no one knows. Mental illness is diagnosed purely on outward symptoms.

*sigh*

No.

Meh. It sounds like that excerpt is there precisely to say that ASD might look similar to schizophrenia, but isn't schizophrenia.

I don't have a link handy but SZ is the most common misdiagnosis of ASD's, so there are similarities, but they are not useful. Ie anti-psychotics don't generally improve autistic traits. Or, that autistics over time do not deteriorate such that they come toore closely resemble schizophrenics.

I'd be careful about SZ. I have the impression that doctors love to diagnose it, and whenever they see behavior they don't understand, they think "psychosis," and then they think "psychosis == SZ."

A lot of symptoms can overlap between two diagnosis. I score high on and have a lot of symptoms of asperger's. I also score high on and have a lot of symptoms of schizoid personality disorder.

The confusion is probably stemming from the fact that "Autism" originally referred to "Schizophrenic Autism." An Autistic like state Schizophrenics often display. It wasn't until after Asperger and Kanner's research of patients with these symptoms that were not Schizophrenic that Autism began to be viewed as a separate and distinct disorder of its own.

Somewhere in the DSM, Schizophrenia had to be ruled out before a DX of Autism could be determined, but I don't recall exactly which DX it was or if it's still there in DSM-IV. I'm pretty sure it's not there in DSM-V, but not certain.

Over the long run of research into both, most in the field don't consider the two necessarily related. Just similar in certain ways.

It does "look the same" in essence, without the delusions or hallucinations, but they are actually far different precisely because of those differences.

Autism is not schizophrenia. People with schizophrenia spectrum disorders can have traits which mimic those found in ASDs, such as social issues. The prodromal stage of schizophrenia can superficially resemble AS, and there is some overlap between AS and schizoid personality disorder on the surface, however there are stronger distinctions that similarities, and I don't believe enlarged ventricles have been seen in AS/ASD while it's commonly seen in schizophrenia.

I don't know much about the subject, but I strongly suspect that at least a subgroup of the schizophrenic spectrum resembles autism because there's an actual overlap within the underlying causes. Autism + propensity for having delusions might result to schizophrenic mental illness. Environmental factors may contribute to it, too.

Personally, I've found that I may have "mild" delusions in the sense that I may interpret the world around me rather peculiarly for a period or time. I may have a firm belief, for example, that I can do something that actually I can't. I may falsely think I'm better at something than most people or I have attributes that I actually haven't (e.g. look, belonging to a group.) These kind of delusions affect me less now than they used to, nonetheless.

But, what if a person is more susceptible for it than me? When you have delusions, there's always a positive reinforcing loop. When this loop breaks up, you are back to reality. It's a bit like bipolar. In case of schizophrenia, there's no such breaking up of the loop.

Hallucinations are harder to explain. They may have a totally different biological cause. However, I'd also consider this: delusions + autistic inertia (perseveration) + low self-esteem may result in one.

Delusions resist change even in the face of overwhelming data. Suppose I think I can walk on water. But when I actually attempt it, I sink. If I continue to believe I can walk on water, then I am delusional. If I accept the reality, then I was suffering from a false belief, not a delusion.

It's my opinion that autism leaves a person prone to false beliefs because the perceptual issue can leave us dealing with incomplete data. But when we are faced with contradictory evidence we have the capacity to change. A delusional person will not change their self belief.

That's because they can look similar. Have you studied the history of autism? We used to call it "childhood schizophrenia" because we didn't know that it was a completely different thing.

And it is different--autism is more dependent on genetics than schizophrenia is; the delusions and hallucinations aren't present in autism. There is some overlap--with movement disorders--but, significantly, the catatonic subtype of schizophrenia is the type that the most doctors are in doubt is actually a form of schizophrenia in the first place.

The difficult problem with telling the difference between schizophrenia and autism is that when the schizophrenia is being properly treated, it can still cause social withdrawal, problems with emotional expression, and unusual body movement and posture. Those traits are also found in autistic people, and it's important to know the difference.

But similar symptoms doesn't mean that they are related disorders. Think of how you diagnose a physical disorder. Say a person comes in with a painful wrist, difficulty moving their hands, pain when gripping an object. They could have a sprain, or a broken bone, or arthritis, or a repetitive stress injury like carpal tunnel syndrome. Those are different things despite the similar symptoms; and it's important for a doctor to know the difference because those problems have different treatments.

The similarity between autism and schizophrenia is in diagnostic presentation that sometimes makes it easy to confuse the two, and that's in the DSM because such confusion can really create problems for the patient, whether he has one or the other or both: Onset of symptoms of schizophrenia long after onset of symptoms of autism in childhood means that both diagnoses can be made. But onset of symptoms of autism after onset of symptoms of schizophrenia (which happens almost entirely in the teen years or in adulthood) means that these symptoms are likely part of the presentation of schizophrenia. Autism starts in infancy--not when you're twenty-five--and it would be silly for a doctor to say you've got some sort of weird adulthood-onset autism if a case of schizophrenia could explain all of what you're experiencing.

I think it's possible that there's a "pre-schizophrenic" personality that may mimic some of the symptoms of aspergers/autism that happens to lapse into schizophrenia when one is old enough and/or there have been specific environmental triggers. So, I think it's possible for the symptoms of schizophrenia to be present from a young age in a subtle way that may mimic aspergers.

Last edited by swbluto on 10 Nov 2011, 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I think it is more Autism = Schizophrenia - Hallucinations/Delusions + Restricted Interests

A comment that I read about that in another forum:

http://schizoids.net/forum/showthread.p ... izophrenia





One of the typical symptoms of schizophrenia spectrum disorders is "alogia", who is, basically, talking in monosyllables and/or one-word phrases ("Yes", "No", and little more)

I read somewhere that the proportion of people with PDD/NOS who develops schizophrenia is abnormally high. Perhaps some case of "PDD/NOS" are simply pre-morbid schizophrenia; and a child with only negative symptoms of schizophrenia probably matches the diagnostic criteria for PDD/NOS.

You are familiar with the work of Sula Wolff? She identified a condition that she called "schizoid disorder of childhood"; around 5% of the children the she studied developed schizophrenia at adult age - much more than the normal; however, their description of "SDC" is very similar to AS - solitary children that only do things that interest them (some differences- the special interests in SDC seems less narrow than in AS; the creation of "imaginary lives" seems more strong in SDC; and in the description of SDC there is not references to lack of social understanding, but simply lack of interest in accepting social rules - however all this diferences could simply be a difference of degree,or even of perspective)