Odd Question

Post Reply New Topic

My therapists want me to try CBT. Now I am aware of CBT techniques and that the general premise is that thought affects feeling and feeling affects thought and behaviour and so on.

Now I agree with that in the most part, but does anyone here find that sometimes their thoughts or intellect are in one arena whilst your emotions are running around like a 5 year old in another arena and that the two will just not communicate with each other amicably? During which time world war 3 has broken out in your head whilst the two fight it out between each other. Meanwhile you are sat between them just trying to get some peace and quiet because there is a movie you want to watch on channel 4 or something.

My emotions are like a disruptive child running wild in a classroom some days.

When I saw child psychologists in my youth, I was told that I was advanced for my age in some ways (intellectually and morally) but very immature emotionally and I do have to agree with that. I do well at online EQ tests because my intellect tells me which is the right answer to select but my emotions often disagree. My emotions have never grown out of their teens and sometimes I feel like I have the emotional maturity of a 10 year old.

For this reason, in my case, thought does not always change my feelings and feelings do not always change how I think. Sometimes it does if they are working in unison and we have some inner team work going on (woot!) but there are times it's like dealing with an arguing couple on Christmas day fighting over who gets to pull the last cracker...All hell will break loose!

I can also confuse people during arguments at times as one minute my emotions are ruling the roost and I become overly emotional and the next my intellect will step in, take over, and I will suddenly become very reasonable and logical. In the next minute though that can change and my emotions will fight for dominance and take over again, until my intellect steps in once more and so on. It tends to throw people out as they never know from one minute to the next what my next line of thought or response will be lol.

I'd swear my emotions live on one planet and my intellect lives on another. Sometimes they visit each other and at other times they are both sat there in their own little worlds doing their own individual thing.

Anyone else get the same problem and really, will CBT work under such circumstances?

Oh yes. CBT or techniques like it can help you become aware of the automatic often negative self-talk going on in your mind that affects behavior and emotions. Maybe your thoughts and your emotions are at a complete disconnect. How about your self-talk, or the tapes that play in your head that you got from parents, teachers, "peers", society? Mine used to be almost entirely negative. The bullies didn't need to mess with me directly anymore, my mind did it for them. It takes some work but if you become aware of those thoughts you can replace them with more realistic, healthier thoughts. Have you ever done art or play therapy? Some method of getting past the rational mind?

Hi, thank you for the reply (Pn i can sound a bit harsh sometimes when discussing things I have strong opinions about but I do not mean to be offensive at all...so please bear that in mind when reading my reply).

My self talk is usually very understanding in many ways.

As I have been through a lot of emotional trauma in life (ie bullying, physical abuse, emotional abuse etc) and I have had very little emotional support from others, I have had to provide that emotional support for myself. In short I understand why I am the way I am in certain ways (depression/anxiety) and so do not hate myself for it. I do not see a bad person who is deserving of loathing, I see a lost little girl who is in pain. I see others who suffer from various mental health issues in the same way. I do not see people deserving of hate, I see people who are lost in a world of suffering and who need understanding.

In also do not feel useless as I know I have skills and am very capable at some things. I do not need to be good at everything and do not mind not always being able to do something as I know there are things that I am good at (Ie I am an A average academically and excelled in that area). I used to be very perfectionistic in that if I could not do something well straight away I would either refuse to do it or sulk and think that I was stupid, but I have been working with myself in regards to that for many years. I still like to do things as well as I can do them at the time but I accept that I will not always get them right or be able to do them perfectly straight away (sometimes it takes a lot of practice, unlike my academic ability which seemed to come naturally).

I am not afraid of failure, I lost that fear a long time ago. I merely see failure as a learning curve. The same goes for mistakes.

I do however get very frustrated with the world and also very depressed over the state of the world etc. I find a lot of people to be highly judgemental. Ie they judge another human beings worth on whether they are employed for example whereas I do not. Yes, whether or not someone works may pertain to how useful they are in that particular way at that particular moment in time but it does not measure their value or worth in all situations or contexts or as a human being as a whole! To my mind all life has value and worth merely on the basis that it is a living being or critter with feelings...

Secondly I find that people make far too many assumptions, even therapists and it drives me nuts. It is assumed for example that I find studying stressful. I can remember seeing a therapist not long ago and when I mentioned the fact that I wanted to start a BSc their reply was "that will be very stressful". I dislike when people jump to conclusions without checking their facts. I do not really find studying stressful, neither do I get exam stress, or panic over revision. In fact, despite my grade average, I don't revise for exams and never have, I still managed to get A grades even at University. Academics always came to me naturally.

CBT itself is based on replacing one set of assumptions with another, just so a person feels better. For example:

Jane sees her friend in the street and says hi but her friend does not say hi back and carries on walking.

According to the examples I have seen Jane may think that her friend was ignoring her and will feel hurt. With CBT they recommend replacing that thought with something like 'maybe her friend was lost in her own thoughts or just did not see her' and so on. This then changes her feelings and accordingly how she responds.

I am fine with the basic mechanism there but does Jane really know why her friend did not say hi or are those all just Jane assuming why her friend did not say hi?

Instead of making any assumptions at all why doesn't Jane just withhold judgement until she has had a chance to ask her friend in a friendly and non intimidating way why she did not say hi that day? Why make any assumptions at all?

Thirdly I have trouble accepting certain things such as "The world is unfair, that is just the way it is and I should accept it". ERRR NO.

The world...or society...is the way it is because WE as a collective and as individuals make it the way it is. Therefore WE as a collective should be able to change it. There is no reason why the world cannot be 'fair'. The problem is that so many people are busy accepting it that not enough people are really trying to change it!

I cannot just accept that the world is unfair and that is just the way it is just to give myself the warm fuzzies today. I would be lying to myself and I know it! And that is the problem with CBT, not only does it replace one set of assumptions with another but it also expects me to lie to myself in order to feel better that day and I am not happy to do that!

Yes, I agree with you. Really. It's always a mistake to assume we know what anyone's motivations are, but people do it all the time. It would be far better to ask questions for understanding rather than make assumptions.

Yes, I have a little girl like that in my own mind for the same reasons. She varies in age.

My inner child varies in age as well lol.

In some ways, actually, I think having an inner child is not always a bad thing, it is when she surfaces at a time that you need to be mature about something that the problems set in!

Oh yeah. I think she helps me understand my daughter. She is also the part of me who is very artistic. When I do a colored pencil painting I sign it with my original first name along with my middle name, Lynn, which is the name I generally go by. BTW, Sylvia isn't my original first name.

I like to be artistic sometimes, although lately I have swayed more towards academics and intellectual stuff. I did spend many years cross stitching etc though and I have some design ideas of my own that I keep meaning to create and pop up on Etsy or something to see if they sell. As I have gotten side tracked with studying psychology at the moment that has not happened yet and my art blogs have not been updated with any new art work in months. In fact some are empty, but I have set them aside ready for when I do start up loading stuff to them.

I use my middle names for my art stuff...Dawn Ambrose or Dawn Ambrose Designs for my blog name etc. There is nothing on there yet though lol. One day maybe lol.

Some of this may be relevent?
I was dicharged from CBT as it wasn't working as I might have Aspergers. Since diagnosis the Aspergers experts have told me this was rubbish and I should have had adjustments in order to make it work as with a disability.
I am having counselling at an Aspergers centre and have been told often you don't feel that something is right even though logically you challenge it and she said it just takes time/practice to actually appreciate it on a deeper level and I should just keep going.
She also said with AS I may need to look more at the behavioural side e.g. distraction if I am too wound up to challenge thoughts.
We have also been looking at the fact I am very critical as I was criticised a lot as a child so turn it on myself. You may need other therapy or medication to get to a place where you can use CBT or find someone with some experience of AS.

I quite like this book. It has sections on self talk and coping with negative thoughts and physical symptoms in anxiety.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Anxiety-Phobia- ... 1572244135
it seems very clear in the way it presents it step by step.

I also bought this book by someone with AS. I've not re-read since I've had a diagnosis though. I'm working with the other book at the moment as was getting so fed up being jumpy with a racing heart over nothing all the time. My therapist says it is common in AS to be more anxious than normal so that when you are anxious about something you are very anxious as your starting point is much higher than in someone else.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Asperger-Syndro ... 827&sr=1-1

I will take a look at those books!

I want to avoid medications though as I am having enough trouble with the ones I am on. It is difficult to get off them because of withdrawal symptoms but on them I am getting various side effects including emotional mood swings that are making my life more difficult. I have always been a bit moody but the antidepressant makes it worse, not to mention sometimes making me feel high at certain doses (I just dropped the dose down because of that). They also sedate me too much and slow me down. I have zero energy to do anything because I just feel half stoned and drowsy all the time. Again it makes it hard to function.

The problem comes when describing my social anxiety to the therapist. I know how I am feeling in certain contexts but I cannot find the right words to explain it to them in a way that they understand. Not verbally. I am much better at writing but even then I cannot always put my finger on exactly what is going through my mind in social situations other than annoyance because they are disrupting my line of thought and having no idea what to say because my brain is empty of anything I want to add to the conversation unless they start talking about one of my interests...in which case I have a brain full of chatter I can pass on to them lol. When nervous I have such trouble getting my words out and even when they ask me direct questions to answer, by the time I have fully formulated everything I want to say, they have moved on to the next question. So I never really get to discuss everything in full...they don't give me enough time to think it all through.

Same problem in social situations. Someone will say something and I can't think of a reply. 2 hours later the reply comes to me but by then the moment has passed lol.

I do not really know exactly what I am nervous of sometimes...I just get nervous around people and particularly groups. I assume that some of this is related to my history of being bullied and is almost a learned response now. I am not consciously reading the person as a threat in any way, I am not worried about embarrassment, I am trying to read the situation and struggling.

As I am not officially diagnosed with an ASD it is difficult to get anyone to understand the latter as they think if I just relax it will come to me, but I have had the same problems with people I am relaxed around so I am not so sure that is the case.

They also seem to think that my routines are OCD and I don't agree. I do them because I enjoy them and because they serve as a function for me in some way (even if they cannot understand what the functional purpose of them is), they do not cause me distress in and of themselves. What causes me the distress is people trying to change them because to them they are pointless. To me they are not pointless and I function better with them in place. I don't get a surge of anxiety if I don't do them as though something bad will happen as a result, I just feel upset about it really as I miss them. Ie I like the same flavour ice-cream on a Saturday night. I have been having the same flavour for years and I can get upset when I can't get the flavour I usually have but I don't think something horrible will happen and I don't want to change my flavour...I like that flavour, I don't want a different flavour, if I did I would buy a different flavour!

Same thing with my coat...I always wear the same coat whenever I go out. People keep giving me coats to wear because they think I only have one coat. But I like that coat, I am attached to that coat, I am fond of that coat, and I don't want to wear a different darn coat! Yes it is getting old but I will wear that coat until it falls apart! And then I will morn for it and replace it with a similar coat lol.

I feel a bit trapped actually as I cannot get them to help me in the way that I need. I could do with some social skills help but they seem to think I should just know this stuff and won't believe me when I say I don't know what I am doing in that way lol. They think if they cure the depression and social anxiety that the rest will come to me naturally. My gut just knots up when they say that because it doesn't come to me naturally and I believe that the underlying difficulties with socialising and the resulting isolation are causing the social anxiety and depression and not the other way around.

Basically I feel they are ignoring underlying issues and just treating the symptoms that those issues are causing, which is getting me no where and making therapy a complete waste of everybody's time! And people keep wanting me to change things I don't want to change and it's sending my stress levels though the roof. I was less stressed without therapy as I could potter around doing things in my own little odd quirky way without the world constantly wanting to make me more 'normal'. For this reason I am tempted to drop the therapy and I am actually looking for a way out of it.

If I can get myself feeling well enough to work (been feeling unwell lately with CFS type symptoms which may be due to the damn medication I am on) then I can get off disability and deal with it in my own way. It will be less stressful that way as then I can seek out the information that I need and that which will actually help me instead of wasting hours going around in circles with psychiatrists and therapists and being given medications that make things worse and not better!

It seems they are treating your neurological differences as the pathology rather than the way you feel about them, or the damage done to your psyche as a result. I know what you mean about missing a lot of the conversation. I can't keep up in a group. Even 1:1 sometimes I can hear that someone said something but I don't have a clue what it was. It's just a meaningless set of noises. It gets worse with background noise. I've been checking out auditory processing disorders. Seems to fit.

I liked it so much that you said this. I think the same way. I prefer not to make asssumptions and leave things open until I get more information.

I think NTs make assumptions because they prefer not to deal with unknowns. It is easier for them to make an assumption and act on it, even if it is a false one, than it is to deal with an unknown situation. This is not saying that we are entirely comfortable dealing with unknowns; an unknown may generate some anxiety even if we prefer it.

Also, NTs tend to share a common set of assumptions about what is going on. I don't know if this is simply because they are hard-wired to interpret the way they do, or if it's more so because they are socialized to make those assumptions. For instance, a group of 9 year old girls are hanging out on the playground and one of them calls out to another girl. She does not hear her and does not respond. The other girls say, "oooh she's ignoring you, she must think she's better than you." Does the girl who called out believe this, simply because the other girls say so, or because she feels ignored? Or both?

I notice that assumptions often equate an emotion with the other person's intent, ie, the person feels slighted = the other person intended to make them feel slighted. I don't know anything about CBT, I had to look it to know what those letters stand for, but from the way you describe it I get the gist of it. It is replacing an unpleasant emotional assumption with an assumption that feels better. I can't imagine how that would be helpful for someone who does not make emotional assumptions in the first place.

I have found, on the contrary, that I can get into hurtful situations because of my very unwillingness to make assumptions. I do not understand the assumption the other person is making, or the assumption that they expect me to make about the situation so I continue trying to get information about what is going on. Many times that has led me to continue interacting with someone long past the point when another person would have simply made an assumption about what is going on and walked away.

I am not trying to speak for anyone else but I think many of us here have trouble recognizing when other people DO have the intent to hurt us, because we cannot extrapolate it logically. Again I don't know anything about CBT but it sounds like it could actually exacerbate this issue. This is not directed to you specifically bumble, I am not saying this is how it would affect you, and maybe I don't totally understand the purpose of CBT. But I have found that sometimes I need to be willing to make some assumptions about what other people are intending. The difference is that I don't make emotional assumptions, I make assumptions based on past experience.

I have also found that I needed to pay more attention to my own feelings about what is going on in a situation. Sometimes I get a sense about what a situation is leading to but I dismiss it because I logically it doesn't make any sense. If I feel uncomfortable, hurt, etc. maybe it is not important what the other person intended. The important thing is that I recognize what I feel and do something to change the situation. The trouble is that I don't always recognize what I'm feeling in the moment, I tend to have a delayed reaction and the feelings surface later. In the example of someone not responding to a greeting, I don't need to know why they didn't respond, I just need to know what I feel about it - what I actually, genuinely feel, not what the "better" feeling might be if I made a different assumption.

It seems to me that trying to change feelings about hypothetical situations, by learning to make a different set of assumptions, is putting the cart before the horse. I need to know and understand exactly what it is that I'm feeling first, before I try to change my feelings, and I need to know them in the context of a real-life situation, not a hypothetical example. I am also wary of the practice of changing feelings. Feelings are there to inform us of something, and the feeling will continue to present itself until the information is understood.

I don't know if any of this sounds relevant to what you are experiencing, it is just what came to mind.

I know how stressful it is when other people are trying to change you, or convince you to change yourself. This is again the type of situation where I would say it is not important what the intent is. They may be sincerely trying to help, or they may be busybodies who need to butt out of my life, but the important thing is that I feel stressed. Knowing the intent of other people or telling myself a "story" about what they intend doesn't change the way I feel about it, because it's the behavior that is affecting me, not the intent behind it.

When you said CBT, my mind went to a completely different place. Kind of in the gutter. But now I know what you mean. I've also heard CBT referred to rather smarmily as "Client Based Therapy" to imply that it's only pallative.

I don't know much about it, at all, but I would think that something along the lines of analysis might be more productive. I only think that because I think it would be more productive for me, and I tend to see things for others through my own perspective.

Frances

It is ok, I think I know the place in the gutter you were thinking of!

Mention CBT on certain sites and people start getting excited. If I ever finish my psychology degree I think I will pass on becoming and CBT therapist as I don't think I could tell people my occupation and keep a straight face at the time lol.

Yes I was wondering if analysis would be more useful to me.