Asperger Syndrome and Rudeness Response

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Why is it not okay for people with Asperger Syndrome/Autism to be Rude, but Nuerotypicals can say something Rude, and it's not treated like a horrible thing happened?

An example: An adult daughter who is Neurotypical tells her mother, "Oink, oink." when talking about mother eating pie one day after she made it, and thus pigging it down instead of saving it another day. The mother acted embarrassed and says, "Yeah, I shouldn't." The Nerotypical then says, "Well ya'all (the father, mother, and sister, who has Autism) need to and get a gym membership." The mother says nothing.

The daughter with Autism (Asperger Syndrome, Adult). says, "Why does dad take a monster piece of pie like he's starving?" ("Damn."). The mother then gets angry at her daughter and says, "Don't worry about what others are doing, and just because dad takes a big piece, don't worry about that." "Just take a little piece, you don't have to take a big piece of pie." "Quit worrying about what others are doing!"

The other daughter (Neurotypical) says to her sister, (Autistic), "What are you damning about?" "It's not like you're not getting any pie."

In other words, the person with Autism is being unreasonable and it's okay for the Neurotypical to say whatever.

Why is this?

The usual reason for this is that most people would see this as the Aspie just using their disability as an excuse to be rude, whereas neurotypicals are expected to understand sarcasm and thus assume most rude things nt's say to just be light sarcasm.

First off, I'd call that a bad example of what you're talking about. The NT comment was what could be considered companionably snide or sarcastic, while the AS remark was more like a complaint, therefore it would obviously be received and treated differently.

My sister got away with things that would have gotten me dragged to the psych's office. I generally think that it is common in multi-children families for parents to treat the same indiscretions differently among different children.

Apparently, though we might be oblivious to it, we with AS are quite difficult to deal with as children and I think we are more prone to getting on a mother or father's "last nerve" because of that.

I recall my mother would occasionally get frustrated at something I wasn't doing that I should have been doing at a particular age. It really just came down to the fact that, even though she loved me, and was very understanding, on some level, even if I wasn't doing anything, it stressed her that I wasn't "normal".

I think I know when I am rude and not and when I am I explain. I shock people at times with what I say. However I've seen A.S \ Autism used an excuse for someone to call names. So it is not fair to anyone to make excuses but to educate. The only break I give is when someone is also cognitively handicapped but even people with mild cognitive impairment at times will say sexual things to the wrong people in the wrong settings but be educated and if it persist it is considered sexual harassment in certain settings where I live and they are punished then allowed back to the center.

There are obvious reasons someone might perceive something rude such as calling someone an N word, overweight and so on. Then there are little sensitivities that do not follow a predictable pattern of common human behavior that are not easily predicted. The differences between an A.S person and N.T as for as this goes is not clear so a strict definition or statement about this subject between the two is not commonly absolute.

I have HFA and I do not use my disability as an excuse as I consider it to be making me out to be unable to learn or know better with concern to this conversation.

There are two possibilities why the parent in your example got mad.

First of, as someone else stated, it's possible that the AS kid already was on the parent's last nerve. If the child had already done things before that happened, this could be the last drop (as in "that does it!").

Second, the NT kid made the first 'joke'. That is accepted if it's not too offensive. The AS kid then pushed it by making another joke, ruder than the first one. If it were the other way around (AS kid first, NT kid second), the result could have been the same as in that the second kid would get the blame. So it doesn't necessarily have to do with AS.

To sum things up, it may not be because of AS at all. However, AS may be the reason for the behavior (kid doesn't know when not to say something) so he/she gets in trouble. The same rules still apply to everyone, so if your kid is prone to breaking them...

When people don't favor you, they treat you differently. You have to understand that most behaviour is unconscious.

The first kid sounds like she was mostly concerned about mom's health. The second kid sounds like she was complaining about others getting a bigger piece of pie. Of course people take that differently. Plus a joke is not funny if you do it again and again. Of course I'm sure the parents can favor the kids differently, too.

When I was little I could get away with scolding my parents about how they handle their finances, when my brother would get spanked for something like spending his pocket money on something my parents didn't approve. Parents do treat their kids differently, unfortunately.

Dear Shadowcat:

In psychology there is a term referring to certain members of families or any organizations. The term is identified patient. This is the one member whom the others use as the seat of their own aggressions and shortcomings. The "normal" family (organization, including workplace or military) members fear their own aggressions and failures, so they project (another psyche term) them onto the member perceived as weakest. I have come to dedect one such member in many of the families I encounter. You can be rude or sarcastic if you are in the "club," but not if you are identified.

It does and it's unfair.

This is why I probably wouldn't tell most people if I did have a DX.

But the reason IMO is that NTs are assuming other NTs who say these things are joking. Coming from someone with AS they just VIEW you as a set of symptoms IMO, and anything you do they quickly attribute to the disorder.

So they feel it's OK to "correct" someone with AS all the time, and are much less likely to think about the thoughts/motives behind the statements or stop to think that it might be a joke like they would with an NT.

I can tell you for sure, my humor is taken very differently around people who assume I'm NT than it is around people who I know for a fact think that I might be somewhere on the spectrum.

Among the people who think I'm NT they think it's hilarious and among the latter they feel it's ok to correct me and basically pretend that they are offended.

I think kids at my daughter's school get let off scot free with being mean and nasty, while my daughter has to learn social skills. The last time I met with the depute head, I enacted a scene I had witnessed where a girl was particualrly rude to my daughter (I'm particualry concerned about the prospect of bullying, due to my own experiences as a child and knowing that my daughter is a very likely target). She asked what I had done about it and I said that I told my daughter to come away from her, as I had no idea what else to do. She said that I had to teach my daughter to assume that the other girl hadn't meant anything nasty (when it was plainly obvious that she was being nasty). The ball is squarely in my daughter's court and there's no responsibility on the others to be civil and treat her with respect. And she has to act stupid and gullible - I'm sure that will help keep the bullies at bay.

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In reply to MollyTroubletail (the name implies a history with social misunderstandings), let me say this as far as Aspergers as "excuse" for rudeness.

Firstly, Aspergers is a verifiable neurological condition. It is not the rudeness syndrome. There are a raft of symptoms. For those who equate Aspergers with only social awkwardness, please look at Tony Atwood's definitive guide, "The Complete Guide to Aspergers Syndrome." You will see that there is a range of symptoms, including language difficulties, clumsiness, problems detecting emotions of others, trouble looking people in the eye. Do you think not laughing when everyone else is due to "missing" the joke is rude?
You can't have a syndrome without symptoms, and trouble connecting to others is an Aspie symptom. You don't say, "Oh, look at that Schizophrenic. She is so deliberately rude."

MollyTroubletail is right that it is the NTs who are moreover rude. The big boss once greeted me with, "Uncle D....How are you doing selling those gym passes?" I work in retail. I challenged him that you do not greet someone you haven't seen in a week by asking how he/she is making money for you. So, the big boss said, "In these grave economic times, we have to think of our bottom line." Now that's rude, and he's an NT.

Are you naysayers on Aspie "rudeness" familiar with the term Ugly American? Many Americans go abroad with their purported good manners, but, when they can't have the room with the king size bed or are detained at customs, they play up their Americanness..."I'm calling my embassy. You can't get away with this. We're Americans."

I know premodonnas who use manners as a way to keep people down. One such church-going gal with a job in people management (sounds like the British colonials offering tea to the native people) would take advantage of the blind people on a ski trip..."Jessa, you're doing really well, but can you do it over for me?" [Jessa says she has practiced enough times and would like to just move ahead] The churchgoers reply: "Please don't be argumentative.You need to learn skills. Uh, Jessa, can you give me eye contact, so I know you understand what I'm saying?"

The people I hate most are those who are in some power and who use strict adherence to manners to keep people below them feeling weak and restricted. That's the worst rudeness.

Then there are the kind of "manners" that keep you in line. On a bus with friends I started talking about how the Japanese conceive of art, and this big working class guy shoots us or me dirty looks and mumbles insults under his breath while exiting. The point is that the new "manners" preclude you from talking on anything intellectual or challenging to the status quo in mixed company. You are supposed to talk about "the game," (and there's always a game), and how you did the jello shots last night. And since 9/11 you can't show any kind of dissatisfaction with America or Capitalism. There was a NY Times article in 2002 or 2003 about the death of sarcasm after 9/11, and SNL needed Mayor Giuliani's permission to be sarcastic again soon after 9/11.

Bill Buckley was a plutocrat who used upper crust "manners" to humiliated his opponents. He once lost it, though, and threatened to punch Noam Chomsky in the face. Some people like Buckley deserve to be treated with bad manners.

Then there is our fascination with celebrities like Paris Hilton, Alec Baldwin, and, eek, Charlie Sheen. Would you call these weirdos polite? No way! If we are so polite a society, then why do we worship these disturbed individuals? Why did so many people buy tix to Sheen's Warlock tour? Sure, most of us are well-mannered except when it comes to the famous. We expect them to be explosive and foul-mouthed.

Many of you are too young to know that in the 70s and 80s, when I was young, people were routinely rude. You would walk down the street in the wrong neighborhood, and some punks would say,"What are you doing in this neighborhood. You don't live here." Racism was still OK, and teenage girls were expected to snipe at the lower downs. Everybody sniped at somebody.

You can't expect everyone to be polite all the time. Do you expect a New York cabdriver to act like Walter Raleigh? If everyone were polite all the time, we'd have no conflict, and you will always have conflict. At least with the occasional outright rudeness, you know the person is being honest. It's the premadonnas who put on a show of good manners while stabbing you in the back that I hate. And most of us Aspies are not like that; we are genuine.

Thanks,

Uncle D.