Well-meaning Condescension

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This might apply more to female Aspies than males... I'm not entirely sure.

Since I started college (university) at 17 years of age, I've have--for the first time in my life--had friends. Most of the time, these friends are female; because there's a very stupid thought among college folks that if you have a friend of the opposite sex, then that person must obviously be a love interest.

The thing is that, as far as I can remember, every single friend I've had has tried to "help me", with good intentions, to become more normal. This hasn't always been annoying or even useless; for example, it was a friend at college who first showed me how to tuck in a shirt properly (pulling it out a little way to hang loosely, rather than tucking it tightly in), and explained that most girls' shirts don't need to be tucked in at all. A camp counselor in grade school showed me how to put my hair in a ponytail. A friend paid for me to have my ears pierced for my 21st birthday. And my cousin explained to me exactly what people find so attractive about Brad Pitt.

More than once, I have been shown how to do my hair, how to put on makeup, and how to wear clothes properly. I've even been given a tutorial on how to find a good bra, and minute explanations of why, exactly, one shouldn't talk about possible complications in multiple pregnancies while in mixed company, no matter that one's own prenatal period consisted of problems from just such a complication, and resulted in a dead twin and a slightly premature birth.

I understand that their intentions are kind; they believe that I will be happier if I am more normal, and they want to help me "break out of my nerdy shell". They see me as sort of a cute, well-meaning little puppy dog who just doesn't know how to behave yet, and needs to be taught... I'm not sure if I'm reading their intentions right; but maybe they see me almost as a child who needs to be protected and taught the "right way" to do things. Girls, when they are of a generous disposition, seem to have almost a maternal way of treating people like me.

There always seems to be subconscious condescension in the way these girls treat me, though; it seems that it makes them feel good to help me (which is good), but also makes them feel superior (which is not good). Friendship, surely, is about helping each other; but I've noted this trend towards makeovers of various sorts seems to be so much more pronounced when it comes to the way my friends treat me, than the way they treat anyone else.

Just in the past two days (which is what probably triggered this post), one roommate advised me that I should spike my short hair with gel, and another extolled to me the benefits of willpower when it came to studying and advised that I should seek pastoral counseling.

There are only two friends I have had who were not condescending towards me; one is bipolar, and the other has hemiplegia. Neither of them is "normal", though neither is on the spectrum; and they both see me as an equal. Maybe they have enough problems of their own to try to set about solving mine for me.

I would much rather have this well-meaning condescension than the outright hostility I experienced in grade school and at home. At the very least, they mean well. But... I really just want to be accepted for who I am, seen as an equal, and not be the subject of so many makeover attempts.

Is this a trend among other Aspie girls (and maybe guys) as well?

I have known people like that.

I've always refused to change myself, hated when others suggested I change this or that. I know I put myself outside the group, I just can't take it. Feels like they make me into someone else.
I see it as critisism, you are not good enough as you are. I don't take critique well.
I also see at as a control issue. And about superiority as you say.

If these people were your true friends they would accept you for who you are. On the positive side, they really want you to be their friend, by fitting you into the group. The question is: do you want to be their friend?

I think you should count your blessing having two friends who accept you for who you are.

I have two friends who also accept me, neither of them are normal, I am so much more relaxed in their company.

I blew up at one of those girls today... the one who said I needed more willpower to do my schoolwork... (I know this; but how to get more willpower is still a mystery to me, and "just do it" doesn't help me any more than it influences me to buy Nikes).

Thing is, she stayed calm, and I burst into tears basically accused her of being a run-of-the-mill, boring person who'd have no impact on the world... emotional, completely uncalled for, and pretty hurtful--meltdown mode, pretty much. So I walked into her room (we're housemates) to apologize and found her writing a note to apologize to me herself for not having "handled it better"... She really is a good friend, you know?

I shouldn't expect NTs to be perfect any more than I expect myself to be perfect... but I was really mean to her. I shouldn't have taken out on her my annoyance at every condescending thing anyone has ever done to me. It wasn't logical, and it wasn't fair.



Maybe I'm just expecting too much from the NTs? If it's their nature to be motherly and a bit condescending... Maybe I shouldn't hold it against them any more than I'd hold it against an Aspie if he wore mismatched clothes.

At one point I had a group of girls invite me over because, as far as I could tell, they'd all been the recipients of social training showing that you "reach out to the 'shy' person".

I spent quite awhile sitting around not understanding what they were saying, not talking to them, and just generally being bored out of my mind. They never invited me back.

I believe such NT's are very nice people. They mean no harm. She sounds very nice your friend.

If you don't mind the changes go for it. Friendship I mean.

Well, for the most part, I change only if what I'm doing offends people--that's why I started taking showers and adopting a khaki-and-T-shirt "uniform" that looks normal, if plain, rather than "anything that fits, even if it clashes and/or is extremely out of style", which is what I used to wear.

But I'm not going to spend hours doing boring things like watching "chick flicks" (movies usually involving humor, romance, and illogical reactions by the lovestruck), putting on make-up and fiddling with my hair, or drooling over some celebrity. If they want to teach me to do that (and they've tried)... well, good luck, because I'm not like that.

If someone is a friend, they won't insist on my changing to fit their specifications. I'll change only so far as to not offend them, and to remove major obstacles to communication (for example, I've learned a crude sort of give-and-take for conversation; I act as though I am gathering information about what they're talking about. Sometimes they can even be induced to give information about some topic they know about--like one of my friends, who used to train horses--and be positively interesting to talk to). Beyond that... I am who I am: Take it or leave it.

Besides, the feel of make-up drives me crazy.

You are much too busy worring about if your are doing right that you end up sticking out like a sore thumb.

As we grow up there are many things for us too learn. Did you have a poor maternal relationship or no contact, or did the discussion about choosing a good bra just not come around!

Your frustrations at minor things will only lead too more frustration. You must learn that you can be who you want and how you want.
Next time you see a bum on the street, drunk as hell and laying in his own urine, ask yourself this "do you think he cares if i see him like this?". No!
What about a person who cant hide their affliction? Think of life as a midget or a person with a facial deformity!

Your perspective is not correct. You need to get a grip of yourself and not be dominated into being someone else, or how others feel you shoud be. just do it in a calm but firm way.

I don't have many friends at the moment, If someone comes over and then I need my space at some point, I ask them too leave. I don't really care if they then hate me and cuss my ass to others. I asked them too leave and then I was happy.

It is much better to be happy then not. And love who YOU want to love, and at least expect them to return the feeling.

Be strong and happy...

Marcus.

EDIT.
Just a last thing. I dont do religion.

I have enough trouble balancing my many interests and my poor attitude to even consider entertaining the many thought disrupting routines dispenced by religion.
Although i am amused by a few of the religions out there.

Sorry for any offence to any religious nutters reading this.

Marcus.

My mom is an A-cup... after breast-feeding three children! For her, choosing a bra is as simple as going to Wal-Mart. My mother quite frankly doesn't know the first thing about choosing a bra, because it just doesn't matter when you're as tiny as she is! (When I was in my teens, my mom weighed 95 pounds, tops, and was five feet tall in heels... she weighs a bit more now, thankfully.) I take after my dad; I'm round and stocky like he was, so I need to select a C- or D-cup--something about which my mom knows very little. She's even offered me my grandma's old bras, which, apparently, were given to us among other hand-me-downs (and, until my friend taught me better, I wore them).

Now that I've thoroughly embarassed all the males on this thread, we'll move back onto the topic of helpful (and not-so-helpful) friends...

[EDIT]
No offense. But we're not all "nutters".

Its been my experience that stumbling across an aspie tends to trigger a maternal instinct in the NTs.. and since we all know they are slaves to their instincts and whims they cant really help but be smothering and condescending even though they usually dont mean to be and would apologize if you called them on it (it wouldnt change anything though) I just put up with it and try to remember they mean well as Im strangling them and usually let go before they pass out.

Something that occurred to me on reading this, re: the spiking the hair thing... perhaps that wasn't so much a criticism as a "Hey, this might look good on you, who knows, give it a shot, it might be fun" kinda thing.
And you're right, your other friend sounds like a keeper.

Re: the bra thing... one night my wife and I were watching this show that I forget the name of offhand (she'll likely remember) and it dealt with the fact that sooo many women are stuffing themselves into too-tight/ill-fitting bras due to confusing differences in what a specific cup size is (no real standard) and so on and that most of these women were actually 1 or 2 cup sizes larger than they'd previously thought but with an inch or so taken off the circumference. So, I called around and found a local shop that does custom fittings (honest-to-dog trained fitters) and was going to surprise ze wife with it for a b-day present (but other things happened and so on, so, Christmas I think) given that she's not only fairly busty but also has near-permanent indentations on her shoulders from crappy straps.

Oh and don't worry too much about grossing us out, or at least not me... aside from one of the cats, I'm the only male organism in my house, so...

When I moved to L.A. I was taken under the wing of an NT who started inviting me to circuit parties with his friends. I was really eager for some semblence of a social life and more importantly I wanted a boyfriend. Well, of course I have learned that circuit parties aren't the place to find a boyfriend. BTW, a circuit party is basically a celebration of shallowness where every guy does steroids, goes to the gym 5 times a week, and stops eating. Then they put ecstacy or some other dreadfully unnatural substance into their body that helps them to dance shirtless for 6 hours solid until the sun comes up, or until they find someone to go home with, whichever comes first. I never went home with anyone. Not my thing. Though I did meet someone that I ended up dating a couple times.

The first thing they did when I arrived was redress me completely. Every time we went out after that I'd get redressed upon arrival. Eventually I could manage to pick out a shirt and pants that would fit in from the collection they'd given me. Mostly I was grateful because I did feel kind of clueless and I wanted to be accepted.

I'm glad my circuit party days are over. I can't even begin to describe how awkward I felt many times but I kept going out of desparation. My friend stopped going and then so did I. We're still friends. I've noticed that without that social pressure, I have drifted back into my old ways of hating to go shopping for clothes and just wearing what's comfortable. Well, I have always hated shopping actually. Most of my clubbing clothes were gifts of his old clothes. I'm much happier being myself.

I'm all for the idea of an NT trying to help you out in places. My friend Jeremy, we've been the best of pals since Primary school, and since we met he's taught me quite a lot to help me fit in, such as tone and volume of voice, choice of words, and how to pick up sarcasm (He described it as this: "It's basically lying by telling the truth"). I remember once when he was telling me that instead of going "I predict that this will happen." that I say something else. I tried assume, estimate and guess, but he corrected me with the word reckon.

I reckon (heh, irony) that it'd okay to be taught the social game, but I think that it's the worst thing in the entire world to change one's personality (such as buying different clothes, trying to stop me being addicted to certain topics, etc etc...).

Okay, you can throw the rotten fruit at me now!

I have a 'well meaning' work collegue of mine that insists on telling me what to wear to work. Skirts and high heels are what she wears and she tries to get me to wear them as well. I don't see the point in wearing these things because (A). Skirts and high heels are not required for my job/are not required to look professional and (B). High heels are pain to wear all day, especially if I do a lot of walking around town during my lunch hour.
I do just fine in my long pants and flat shoes. This woman is my 'mentor' in the work place and should advise me on work task related things and NOT how to look. She has worn high heels to work every day for years, to the point that it hurts her feet and calf muscles when she wears flats .
She could tell me to be myself but the only path to success she knows is the path that she took. She is trying to make me follow it exactly.


Callista: How did this friend of yours find out that you had unsuitable bras? I mean, she would only talk to you about that sort of stuff if she knew what sort of bras you owned. Did she rummage through your underwear draw or something?

Frankly, I reckon what underwear someone wearing is no-one else's business

We were dorm-mates and often did our laundry together.

If I were a single father with a daughter then i would take her to a shop where other women who sell bra's and wear them can advice her on the best choice.

Blue_bean says "This woman is my 'mentor' in the work place and should advise me on work task related things and NOT how to look. She has worn high heels to work every day for years, to the point that it hurts her feet and calf muscles when she wears flats ."

She may think that you need her direction on getting the most out of men!

Wearing the right outfit can make men do anything for you, and you are in control of it


Atb

Marcus

Aieee, people like that bother me so much! I sit alone in the corner by the vending machine at lunch because I can't bear to get near the cafeteria tables. I've been doing this for almost a year and a half now, ever since I moved to the school I'm currently at (my old school had tables that I could deal with). About once a week, someone comes over to where I am and tries to get me to sit with them, then seem amazed that I could actually prefer to eat over away from everyone else. Just the other day, a professor that I don't even have called me into the staff room to talk about 'why I read so much' (he was apparantly curious about me, since the vending machine that I sit at most often is right by the staff lunchroom). I was so embarrassed!

Thankfully, I haven't run into the 'puppy' thing yet, probably because I'm very good at slipping away from anyone who bothers me, which most people who try to train me into more normal habits try to do. Maybe it's a high school thing (I have access to lots of geeks where I am, and they tend to be very accepting of various eccentricities, particularly band geeks for some reason), but I have been able to make plenty of aquaintances (and friends at my old school) who don't bother to condescend me, although they occasionally do point out gaffes I've made.

Then again, no one but a few, very trusted people I've known for years knows I have AS. (I'm not ashamed of it, or anything; it's just not something I bring up.) Perhaps that is why I haven't run into this issue.