DSM a fraud? Interesting documentary....

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zer0netgain
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25 Oct 2010, 12:32 am

This DVD was sent to my office. It's titled THE MARKETING OF MADNESS.

In short, it's 3 hours of interesting viewing, and the first of 18 segments hosted on YouTube begins below. Don't know why the poster didn't arrange all 18 into a playlist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1nbZCNDgbY

The skinny is this...psychiatry (note, not psychology or neurology) is not a valid science, and the DVD documents how this field basically creates disorders out of nothing using diagnostic criteria that CAN NOT be tested for in any objective laboratory test. From DSM-I to DSM-V (coming soon), the vast majority of "disorders" are cooked up to put labels on people with conditions that may be perfectly normal, and the treatment for most every disorder is a new generation of psychotropic drugs with horrific side effects and a tendency to lead people to chemical dependency that's worse than what happens with street drugs. All for the insanely high profiteering of the pharmaceutical industry.

I AM NOT SAYING that if you have been diagnosed as bipolar, ADHD, etc. that you ARE NOT suffering from those conditions, but there is no question that the labels are applied to many people with little to no scientific determination of a medical disorder requiring treatment. There is no way for any psychiatrist to prove you have a "chemical imbalance" because they have no standard of what is "normal" nor do they test for existing brain chemistry before subjecting a patient to potentially harmful medications.

Like others, I presumed the DSM was based on some scientific criteria or standard. In reality, they just make up disorders and assign symptoms....of which EVERYONE in the world could be labeled under the DSM at various points in their life, and it is being used primarily as a tool to sell meds, not help people.

I've always known there was money interests behind how meds were approved for market, and I knew there was pressure to get docs to prescribe the latest expensive drugs, but the thought that for the sake of profit companies are willing to put the whole world on dangerous psychotropic meds via whatever excuse they can find is shocking.

Please watch this and post up your thoughts.



League_Girl
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25 Oct 2010, 12:50 am

Everything is made up? Get it? Doctors have came up with conditions such as personality disorders or compulsive gambling and they even put fetishes in the DSM and gender identity disorder. Now they have made up internet addiction and something about video game addiction where you get cramps in your hand from playing Xbox too much. I forget what they called that. They even made up an eating disorder for pregnant women, pregnorexia :roll: and then they made up a new one for people who can't eat around others, shy eating. I mean god how many other conditions are they going to make up by taking issues from other conditions and making it of their own like they did with eating disorder and they also made up shy bladder where you can't pee in public restrooms.

I am not saying none of these exist, I am saying how doctors come up with conditions by taking peoples problems and making it one. But I think some of them are ridiculous.

The video is too long for me to watch but I watched the first part.



Apple_in_my_Eye
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25 Oct 2010, 3:59 am

The part about "chemical imbalances" being bogus is a good one. I've heard/read that the thinking was (though it was really more about marketing), "Prozac 'increases' serotonin, and Prozac 'cures' depression, therefore, depression is caused by a 'lack' of serotonin." The reality is that no one truly knows what depression is on a chemical level, or why antidepressants do what they do. There is even a drug that biologically does the exact opposite of SSRI's (Tianeptine; serotonin reuptake enhancer), and yet also functions as an antidepressant. Go figure.

As far as antidepressants for depression not being analogous to insulin for diabetes -- I don't see that as a reason not to use antidepressants, though. I'd argue the analogy is "antidepressants are to depression as morphine is to severe pain." Pain is not due to a lack of morphine -- it corrects no chemical imbalance -- but we give it anyway, because as natural as pain is, we don't like it (and for a utilitarian argument, pain also makes people less functional).

I've only seen the first segment, and while I appreciate their view, I think they go a little too far. There is a part where bipolar disorder is equated with having "ups & downs." Some people with bipolar get manic enough to think they're Jesus and can leap from building-tips and fly. I have little doubt that there are people with just "ups & downs" who are (mis)diagnosed and medicated for bipolar (likely BP II) disorder, but to say that all such psych conditions are actually just common experiences of life, is going too far.

Interesting, though. Looking forward to the next segment about neuroleptics.

Essay by a former pharmacologist: "There are No Chemical Imbalances"

Quote:
Contrary to popular belief, stories in the popular media, and pharmaceutical industry advertising, there is no evidence at all that serotonergic transmission is impaired in depressed persons. Neurons use serotonin as their substrate for a myriad of mental phenomena, both conscious and unconscious. There is no reason to believe that what we call "mood" is controlled by one specific neurotransmitter; and in fact, there is every reason to believe that it is not. Pharmacologic disruption of serotonin re-uptake appears most unlikely to selectively impact mood.


Quote:
The Origins of Biopsychiatry

Some decades ago -- through the 1950s, 60s, and 70s -- psychiatric theory fell essentially into one of two camps. There were the psychodynamicists, who encompassed psychoanalysis, depth psychology, "client-centered" theory, existential psychology, and a host of other approaches that had as a common denominator the (now radical) idea that a person's experiences in the world, with his or her family, and with his or her fellow persons, shaped and perhaps even determined the personality that was formed, as well as its derangements. Today, incredibly, the idea that one's experiences in life have an impact on who one becomes is an idea that is not taken seriously, and which one needs to defend if one wants to hold.

The other camp, tiny at the time, were the biopsychiatrists. Biopsychiatry first appeared when someone noted how close the chemical strauctures of a couple of neurotransmitters were to those of certain psychedelic drugs (which, at the time, were called psychotomimetic drugs, meaning drugs that produced effects resembling psychosis). LSD-25, an indolamine, resembled serotonin to a certain degree, and with DMT (dimethyltryptamine) the resemblance was striking: it differed from serotonin (also called 5-HT, or 5-hydroxytryptamine) by only a couple of atoms. Then there were the catecholamine neurotransmitters, norepinepherine and dopamine. These molecules were extremely similar in structure to mescaline and amphetamine. Amphetamine-induced psychosis was well-known to physicians. Although not a psychedelic per se, amphetamine overdose produced extreme paranoia and delusions that were remarkably similar to those seen in paranoid schizophrenics.

So an hypothesis naturally arose: what if schizophrenics were producing "psychotomimetic" drugs in their brains naturally? Then, medicine would have determined the etiology of schizophrenia, and psychiatry, never quite accepted by the rest of the profession as "real" medicine, would have to be taken seriously, even by surgeons. A relatively slight derangement of the metabolic pathway that produces serotonin might result in DMT being produced instead. This was the 1950s, and very little neurochemistry, let alone neuropharmacology, was understood at the time. Research-oriented psychiatrists began a furious race to find what was being called the "M" factor ("M" for mescaline). The blood and urine of mental hospital inmates was being subjected to every test that existed at the time, and after the inmates died, their brains were sliced up and examined for any hint of deviation from "normal" brains. It was a very exciting time. In all the excitement, it seems that everyone forgot that tolerance develops to the effects of psychedelic drugs in a matter of days, while the course of schizophrenia was measured in years and decades. Even if mental hospital inmates were producing DMT or mescaline, or some analog of these drugs, in their brains, it could not possibly account for their condition anyway. But research in this direction snowballed, like the stock market frenzy that drove the prices of Internet companies that had never made a dime to astronomical levels. At one point, someone found a " pink spot" present in chromatograms of the urine of mental hospital inmates that was not seen in the general population, and the frenzy reached even greater heights. Eventually, the spot was shown to be the result of the administration of Thorazine ® rather than the result of any disease, but the biopsychiatry frenzy didn't even slow down.

What was behind this frenzy? Of course, there were some researchers who were positive, almost religiously so, that everything about the human mind and personality had to be reducible to molecules. But at the time, such people were few in number, and the originators of the "endogenous psychotomimetic" hypothesis were not among them. However, biopsychiatric theory and research resulted in a tidal wave of sales for the makers of Thorazine®, the first neuroleptic drug (meaning lobotomizing or brain-disabling drug – modern biopsychiatrists prefer to call this class of drug "antipsychotic") and the increasing number of drugs like it. These companies, in turn, funded such research, for money invested in biopsychiatry was virtually guaranteed to result in ever-growing sales of psychiatric drugs. Drugs for depression, mania, and other "mental illnesses" followed; each made a fortune for the company marketing it; and those companies funded further research in biopsychiatry. This unholy alliance between corporations and scientists continues to the present day, giving us drugs for everything from nervousness to PMS to kids that are difficult to manage. No other medical specialty is underwritten by the drug industry to a degree even vaguely approaching that of psychiatry. And with each new drug brought to market for some condition, the list of types of consciousness that are deprecated as "mental illness" grows. (continues, see link, above)



Asp-Z
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25 Oct 2010, 4:16 am

...Are you a Scientologist? :roll:



OddDuckNash99
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25 Oct 2010, 4:59 am

Apple_in_my_Eye wrote:
"Prozac 'increases' serotonin, and Prozac 'cures' depression, therefore, depression is caused by a 'lack' of serotonin." The reality is that no one truly knows what depression is on a chemical level, or why antidepressants do what they do.

Serotonin may not be the be-all, end-all answer to the neurobiological cause of depression, but it certainly is part of it. There is lots of documented research on this topic, and Prozac increasing synaptic levels of serotonin in the depressed is not the only reason scientists think serotonin is involved. Two other well-known reasons are because many people with OCD have comorbid depression, and they are also helped by SSRIs; as well as people with SAD eating carbohydrates that contain high amounts of tryptophan while depresssed, as a natural, unconscious method of increasing serotonin and making them feel better.

My field of neuropsychiatry certainly has its problems, but there are some of us who are working to make it better and help the millions who are suffering every day from medication side effects. All neuropsychiatric disorders ARE brain disorders, and hopefully, in the near future, we'll be able to pinpoint the exact reason why that is. I will agree that the DSM is crap, though. And taking Asperger's out in the new edition is going to make it even crappier. But that's a topic for another day.
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nemorosa
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25 Oct 2010, 5:13 am

Asp-Z wrote:
...Are you a Scientologist? :roll:


My thoughts exactly.



zer0netgain
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25 Oct 2010, 5:29 am

Asp-Z wrote:
...Are you a Scientologist? :roll:


Not in the least.



franisco
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25 Oct 2010, 5:33 am

This is society vs humanity

persons get depressed in depressing situations. We can change the situation or we can change the person. so you have a crappy unfullfilling job that you hate? Its not the job, its you. Heres some meds to help you with that. Society wins

So you get overstimulated in an overstimulating environment? Its not the constant street noise and hum of electronics. Its just you. you're autistic. Society wins again

Would ADHD be a problem if there were no schools? Kid cant sit still and be quiet for 6 hours a day. There is something wrong with him. Give him drugs

is this how evolution works in the technological age?



franisco
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25 Oct 2010, 5:43 am

what if in the 1800s they had a treatable disease for unhappy slaves? What would they call it and how would the ad campaign go?



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25 Oct 2010, 6:27 am

So depression isn't real? Or schizophrenia? That neurological test that shows a deficit in executive functioning isn't reproducible? Nor the one for Theory of Mind? The brain scans that have show structural differences in autistics are faked?

Psychiatry may not be a hard science like physics, but to totally disregard it IS unscientific. It seems to me that psychiatry/psychology is at a stage similar to species classification in biology before genetics. Organisms were grouped by outward appearances. Then the tools of genetics came along and the actual commonality of a genome is more important than similar traits.

The connection between big pharma and the DSM is not nonexistent, money has ALWAYS played a part in the pursuit of knowledge. But to say it is the ONLY driving factor disrespects the work of many researchers and clinicians that are sincere and dedicate themselves to understanding mental health issues and advocating for those that are on the fringes of society.



zer0netgain
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25 Oct 2010, 7:09 am

wavefreak58 wrote:
So depression isn't real? Or schizophrenia? That neurological test that shows a deficit in executive functioning isn't reproducible? Nor the one for Theory of Mind? The brain scans that have show structural differences in autistics are faked?


Please note that I AM NOT saying that any of those conditions are never real, but to create "disorders" that need medication for "chemical imbalance" without some scientifically valid test to establish the same first is medically irresponsible. If anything, medication should be used as a last resort, but we see kids being diagnosed for depression, ADHD, bipolar disorder, etc. with minimal investment of time in evaluation and therapy....straight to medication, often by the design of the pharmaceutical companies.

This is irresponsible at the very least and medical malpractice at worst. The diagnosis and treatment of disorders should never be profit-based. The duty is to treat the patient in the manner best to their overall welfare. Psychotropic meds ARE NOT the best or safest means of treatment and that the influence of these companies over the profession (and the drafting of the DSM) is very troubling.

How many "disorders" in the DSM are just cooked up because a group of psychiatrists agree that it should exist and how many are legitimate disorders that need treatment?



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25 Oct 2010, 8:10 am

franisco wrote:
what if in the 1800s they had a treatable disease for unhappy slaves? What would they call it and how would the ad campaign go?
They did. The treatment was whipping.

But seriously, just because something doesn't have laboratory tests doesn't mean it isn't "real". (And laboratory tests aren't as objective as you might think. I should know; I've done laboratory tests in my internships.) People's behavior is real and observable; the DSM is built around descriptions of behavior. I don't see why describing people's behavior is "not real".

Oh, that's right. People have hallucinations, wash their hands five hundred times in a row, or kill themselves because they want to do those things. Great. Glad that's all cleared up.


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25 Oct 2010, 8:11 am

zer0netgain wrote:
How many "disorders" in the DSM are just cooked up because a group of psychiatrists agree that it should exist and how many are legitimate disorders that need treatment?


This is a really good question. But the tone of the conversation is suggests that I should see the DSM as nothing but a massive conspiracy and it should be discarded. Even the phrase "cooked up" implies a nefarious motivation. Can you suggest a model that would achieve better results? Are you suggesting that ALL psychiatrists are bad actors? That NOTHING in the DSM is accurate? And the accuracy of the DSM says nothing about the capacity of clinicians using it for diagnosis. How many General Practitioners will diagnose something with no real training? I've had a chiropractor tell me to use herbal remedies for depression and anxiety. This has nothing to do with the DSM.

Don't get me wrong, I have a very jaded view of the mental health system. But it is all there is right now and there are bright spots amongst all the bull. And I am also against medicating every damn variance from 'normal'.



Callista
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25 Oct 2010, 8:14 am

So are many professionals. My psychiatrist was OK with my refusing an antidepressant, for example; last visit he even recommended that an antidepressant was not a good choice for my anxiety issues because they were being caused largely by an overwhelming environment.


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Clyde
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25 Oct 2010, 9:44 am

Personally, some of the things they say in this documentary make sense.

But then again I'm interpreting the documentary differently. I didn't think it was saying that these disorders weren't real or that psychiatrist was bad. They just said basically that the diagnosis of mental disorders has a problem.

The problem is that we only treat what we see in a short term. We're all so happy and gun ho to label someone with a disorder they do or don't have.

Doctors not psychiatrist. Take test, they do more than say "you have a cough, you have a sore throat and burning sensation in your nose. It's a cold". When in later the patient actually had pneumonia.

But like psychiatrist, not all doctors are good as well. They are simply making a diagnosis based on what is presented in the surface. And that is mental health in my opinion.

You can't just look at the surface and say "oh because you present these symptoms, you're bipolar"

An example of a disorder that is real, but is not diagnosed properly:

-Bipolar: When young teenagers are diagnosed with bipolar, you here what they say. I had mood swings and I went to see a psychiatrist and they said I had bipolar.
No where had they explained the other symptoms of the DMS, the delusions of grandeur, no racing thoughts, etc. Bipolar just doesn't exist in children or teenagers. Bad psychiatrist.

If you haven't seen it yet, you guys should check out Frontline: The Medicated Child.



Callista
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25 Oct 2010, 9:48 am

Actually, bipolar disorder can exist in kids and teens. However, you are right in saying that the doctor should have asked himself what else could be causing your symptoms. Psychology requires good diagnostic procedure, just as general medicine does.

Incidentally, doctors faced with a cough and sore throat will almost always diagnose a cold. Colds don't require testing. Only if the patient's symptoms persist will they test for pneumonia.


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