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Tollorin
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19 Feb 2010, 10:06 pm

...have a ceiling as low as the 91th percentile? I want to know... (Personnal reasons)


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Last edited by Tollorin on 19 Feb 2010, 10:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Callista
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19 Feb 2010, 10:42 pm

It depends, but it's possible. I don't know directly because your percentile depends not just on your score, but on the number of items on the subtest and the age you are when you take the test, which matters for children's tests.

A portion of the test with a small number of items, taken by a test-taker at the higher end of the test's age range, may conceivably hit a ceiling and be in the 91st percentile.

For the whole test, no, because if it were possible the test wouldn't be useful for distinguishing bright from gifted. But for a subscale, it's possible.

All of this assumes that the particular scoring method doesn't just assign 99 or 100 for any perfect score on a subscale.

The difference between the 91st percentile and hitting the ceiling of a test isn't all that significant; they both mean you are better than most of your peers, and by the 91st percentile, how much better doesn't matter all that much because other factors, like effort and concentration ability, will overshadow native talent in any real-world application of that skill.

Disclaimer: I have never taken a class on psychological evaluation.


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Tollorin
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19 Feb 2010, 10:50 pm

Sorry I was meaning the WAIS *edited*


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20 Feb 2010, 11:39 am

I've read that the ceiling for the Wechler tests (the version IIIs at least- the newest ones are structured differently) is in the 140s (the mid-140s would be the 99.9th percentile). 91st seems fairly low for a ceiling- I think that would only be in the 120s or so. I was given the WISC-III when I was 15 and scored a 147 for verbal IQ actually, though my performance IQ was much lower since I have NLD. That was the WISC however, and not the WAIS (the WISC is the version for children, which goes until age 16).

Are you asking because you received a score in the 91th percentile, and feel that it underestimates your intelligence? Don't forget that hitting the ceiling is not the only reason for not receiving a higher score. If you are fatigued, overwhelmed, anxious, not feeling well, etc., you may not perform at your full potential. Additionally, if you have autism, ADHD, or learning disabilities, your score may also be lower. Despite my high verbal IQ score, I score very poorly on some neuropsych tests because of my NLD and ADHD (inattentive-type). Even on a test of auditory word-learning, which I supposedly should be good at based on my overall verbal intelligence, I scored in the moderately impaired range thanks to stupid ADHD and difficulty with sustained attention to auditory information. If I'd been allowed to read the words instead of hearing them, I would have performed very differently. So please don't get hung up on any one score- IQ tests are not as accurate as they are made out to be, especially for those of us who are "neuro-diverse."


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LostInSpace
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20 Feb 2010, 11:58 am

I did some reading online, and here is a description of how to recognize when someone has reached a test ceiling:

Quote:
So how do you know if your child has reached a ceiling on a test? The most common wisdom is, on the Wechsler tests (WPPSI, WISC or WAIS), a ceiling is a score of 17-19 on a subtest, and the whole test may be an underestimate if 2 or more subtest ceilings are reached.

But often, parents are told that the child didn't hit a ceiling, because she didn't answer all the questions correctly, or he didn't get to the hardest questions the test had to offer. Are these not ceilings? There are two ways to identify a ceiling. First, if the child answered any more questions correctly, could she score any higher on the subtest? If the answer is no, she could not score any higher, then it is a ceiling. Second, was the termination criteria for the subtest reached? Tests have specific requirements for stopping a subtest. Commonly, the student must get less than x questions correct of the last y questions asked. If the child did not reach the termination criteria, he hit the ceiling. Either one of these identify a test ceiling.

The next logical question is, even if my child hit the ceiling on two or three (or more) subtests, but that can't mean she hit the ceiling on the whole test, can it? Well... what it does mean is that you don't know. Ceilings are just that - you don't know how tall the building is, how many more floors it might have - once you hit the ceiling. You're just staring at the ceiling. Is it the inside of the roof? Or is there one more floor, or ten more floors? You don't know.

It's the same for tests. Once the child reaches the ceiling, there's no telling how much higher she might have gone, if there was room. Or not. The overall test score is calculated from all the subtests, so if she hit a ceiling on several subtests, and those ceilings really were her stopping point, perhaps the overall score is correct. But what if those ceilings should really have been higher... or much higher? Then the low ceilings will average in with her other subtest scores, and lower - or drastically lower - the overall score (called full scale score, GIA, etc. - varies by test). This is particularly likely in a child with uneven giftedness, a Highly Gifted child, or a Twice Exceptional child. Once she hits 2 or 3 subtest ceilings, all you know for certain is that her overall score is a "floor" - a least estimate of her ability.


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Callista
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20 Feb 2010, 5:15 pm

I stand by my original statement that after the 91st percentile, it really doesn't matter whether you hit a ceiling or whether you're simply at the 91st percentile; because once you're the best out of ten people at that particular task, chances are other factors are now much more important than raw talent.


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LostInSpace
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20 Feb 2010, 10:47 pm

Callista wrote:
I stand by my original statement that after the 91st percentile, it really doesn't matter whether you hit a ceiling or whether you're simply at the 91st percentile; because once you're the best out of ten people at that particular task, chances are other factors are now much more important than raw talent.


Yes, this is probably true, except in some specialized fields.


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Callista
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21 Feb 2010, 9:22 am

Yeah, like Nobel prize winners.


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15 Feb 2012, 5:22 am

The difference between someone with a 140 IQ and 170 IQ is like the difference between an aspie and an NT. The child with 170 IQ will have the same difficulties in a class full of 140 IQ that a 140 IQ child has in a class full of 100 IQ kids. And this is the problem with low ceilings on IQ tests. Ceilings do matter.



globalwolf2010
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17 Feb 2012, 10:15 pm

Rascal77s wrote:
The difference between someone with a 140 IQ and 170 IQ is like the difference between an aspie and an NT. The child with 170 IQ will have the same difficulties in a class full of 140 IQ that a 140 IQ child has in a class full of 100 IQ kids. And this is the problem with low ceilings on IQ tests. Ceilings do matter.


I doubt that there would be a ceiling at the 91st percentile, though, unless the test was highly specialized. The 91st percentile is extremely good, but not high enough that it should be the cap.

I would stand by the statement that IQ is not always the greatest measure for intelligence in someone with Aspergers. There can be a serious discrepancy between VIQ and PIQ, to the extent that the full scale IQ is sometimes no more useful in measuring general intelligence than writing a random number in the scoring field (I've heard of psychologists refusing to give a full-scale IQ because the difference is so severe; for the record, it was actually one of the things that gave my elementary school a red flag that I might have autism, and I tested in around the 90th percentile for full scale IQ).

Even if your score is correct, though, a score in the 91st percentile is nothing to look down on. It's not freakishly high, but most people aren't. It falls in the range that you would expect from a university professor or a mechanical engineer. People look at IQs of 160 or 170 as a prerequisite for a job in a complex field, but the reality is that scores like that are incredibly rare, and the perception of them as more common is an artifact of our popular culture drastically misrepresenting IQ. Unless you want to go into theoretical physics or something like that, it's unnecessary. A 91st percentile score means that you can intellectually perform well in pretty much any field you want (always assuming it's an accurate measure; if your PIQ or VIQ were significantly lower than one another like I mentioned earlier, you might have more difficulty with a job in a field associated with the one where you were weakest).