Autism vs. Alexithymia

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So while looking at the alexthymia test and people's responses to it I came to a bit of an epiphany. First things first, we need to clarify what alexithymia even is. The term can refer to one of two things. First, the word comes from a Greek or Latin and roughly means "feeling without words", and it's more general meaning simply refers to difficulty in understanding, distinguishing, describing, or expressing emotions, and its pretty clear that this state is common among people with Aspergers, at least in certain situations. More specifically it refers to a psychiatric diagnosis which may either be a trait of someone, or a temporary state, that is characterized by four things: 1. Difficulty in distinguishing ones emotions from physical sensations 2. difficulty in describing ones emotions 3. restricted imagination characterized by lack of inner fantasies and dreams 4. increased dependence on external stimulus. I say that most autistic people DO NOT have this, and it's actually opposing in many fundamental ways. Why the first two criteria are significant overlap between autism and alexithymia, I find the next two to be opposites. First, the restricted imagination thing. On the alexithymia test here on the forum, many people here got high scores, but got extremely low scores on the things relating to restricted imagination. It seems that a lot of people here seem to spend a significant amount of time daydreaming, immersing themselves in an inner fantasy world, which is the opposite of alexithymia in that respect. There is also numerous threads on dreams in this forum, and they seem to suggest autistic people lucid dream easier, and tend to have vivid, fantastic dreams. On the other hand, alexithymic people, if they even dream at all, tend to have boring dreams were they do ordinary things. Leme tell you, when I remember my dreams they are anything except boring and ordinary. My dreams are extremely vivid and weird. Now for the final point, I say that if anything is this is the literal opposite of autism. Autism comes from auto, meaning self, and ism, meaning condition, and it refered to the hyperintroverted nature of schizophrenics were they would withdraw from external stimuli and seek refuge with in their own minds. While autism has come to mean something different, there is still a reason why autism is called autism and such hyperintroverted behavior is common among autistics. Really, the final point does no match up with autism at all unless you want to assume that autistic people do not think and just look at clocks all day. Yeah right. So in conclusion I say that while people with Aspergers tend to be alexithymic in the loose/literal sense of the word, most do not have alexithymia, and many misconceptions about Aspergers come from assuming the two things are the same thing. They are not.

Just as the case is with autism, could it be possible that one does not need -all- known symptoms of alexithymia in order to have it?

I scored very high on the alexithymia test (171), but the imagination questions, I scored low on.

I think what is going on, is that some of us on the autism spectrum have symptoms that both alexithymia and autism have in common, but lack the ones such as lessened imagination, just like we don't all have the same symptoms from our ASDs.

I have no idea. All I know is the diagnosis criteria for alexthymia mentions imagination, and the criteria for Aspergers does not, and all connections I've seem between autism and alexthymia only point out the lack of understanding emotions part.

There should also be a distinction between social imagination and non-social imagination. My childhood imaginary worlds didn't have as much focus on imaginary characters as they did geographical features and things. Maybe my imaginings were less social than the norm but they were far from non-existent.

Also, if I have trouble remembering or describing my dreams it's usually not because they are boring and realistic. Usually it's the opposite. They're so non-congruent and emotionally idiosyncratic to me that I'm too embarrassed to even make an attempt at describing them.

I don't think I really have any symptoms of alexithymia. Most of my symptoms fall more in line with the "intense world theory" paradigm for autism. I had a ton of sensory issues and extreme ocd-like pickiness and obsessiveness about things as a child. Certain habits like organizing and lining up toys gave me a sense of joy and emotional comfort. It wasn't like I was incapable of normal "pretend" play. I just didn't prefer it when I was alone and found the oft-considered weird "ritualistic" things I did more soothing for some reason.

I don't think this applies to me. I occasionally have lucid dreams, and often have vivid, and sometimes fantastic dreams. I am also a heavy, chronic, lifelong daydreamer.

I can tell my emotional feelings from my physical feelings, although strong emotions will sometimes produce physical effects, like feeling physically stressed, or sick, etc. when very upset. I do sometimes have trouble expressing myself, but lots of people do at times. I'm not sure just what is meant by being dependent on external stimulus, unless you mean something like, not shopping for groceries until the cupboard is about empty. But I have other health problems that make it hard for me to get out, so that doesn't really fit, either.

I should probably add some paragraphs to that textwall of mine...

Is there a link to that alexithymia test? Sounds like I should take it.

I know exactly what you are talking about with the sensory issues, extreme ocd-like pickiness and obsessiveness about things as a child. I had all of those things going on as a kid. Mine got very disruptive to my life. I had compulsive tics/movements that I had to do, and they could hit at any moment. If it happened when I was in the middle of talking, I had to literally just stop everything I was doing and do them. I still to this day have some involuntary ones, but they are of a different sort - involuntary in that I don't realize I am doing them until after I have finished.

Just look through GA and you should find it soon enough.

I experience my emotions more physically than as direct emotions, and I can't describe them easily. I don't display emotions, and often I don't even know what my emotions are. I think that qualifies as alexithymia.

But I also have vivid dreams and a good imagination. I don't think alexithymia requires that you meet all of the criteria.

I'm not sure if you need to meet all the criteria or not either, but there is a connection, but it's only for the emotion part. My point is that this seems to be pretty much the same for most autistic people, where they fit the first two criteria, but not the last to, so even it does mean that these people can be diagnosed with alexithymia this pattern suggests that something different is going on between Autists and other Alexithymics.

Possibly, but I guess the question is whether it needs a different name or alexithymia serves to describe it.

I don't think so, as literally alexithymia would just refer to the emotional unawareness part, I think, and we already have the word autism.

Your analysis fits me perfectly, definitely yes on 1 and 2, and definitely no on 3 and 4. Every night when I go to bed I think "What wild and crazy stuff will my brain come up with for me tonight?" I'm never disappointed.

I certainly have decreased dependence on external stimulus. Spending time in my head is a favorite activity.

I'm very poor at recognizing any but my most basic emotions. Only a few years ago did I find out from a therapist that emotions are supposed to produce different sensations in the body. Not for me. I thought they were limited to what I was experiencing in my brain. That revelation hasn't helped much though. I still have no experience with a large number of emotions.

I don't agree with your assessment that most autistic people don't have the third trait.

I completely agree that not all, but with limitations to imagination being in the diagnostic criteria for classic autism, I don't think you can claim that because of a few poster's on here that a majority of people don't have a trait.

Personally, I meet 1, 2, 3, and don't know what it means by 4.

Also, alexithymia isn't a diagnosis, its a trait that is common in people on the autistic spectrum, is not unique to the autistic spectrum and has a name.

To explain more about my own particular manner of both lucid dreaming and having very limited dreams and fantasies.
-I don't daydream at all. I'll think about things, but I don't daydream.
-I rarely fantasize about things I want to occur. In the few cases I do, its about things that are directly related to a special interest that are not current available to me (the only example I can think of is fantasizing about how I can get some animal to live with me when the situation made it seem impossible)
-My nighttime dreams are rarely things I can remember, and I usually feel like I didn't dream.
-When I do know I dreamed, they're very realistic dreams. I've had dreams realistic enough that over 6 months later I managed to not be aware that things that it was a dream.
-I do in fact lucid dream. In my lucid dreams, I still am that realistic. I will go lucid in a nightmare and will end up swimming in the dream. I don't go flying or fighting superheros, I find a nearby pool and swim (I'll give it that the pool didn't smell of chlorine though). Normal lucid dreams are similar.

On wikipedia there's the following description:

I personally fit all of those traits. If 4 is referring to 'concrete, realistic, logical thinking, often due to the exclusion of emotional responses to problems', I'd also say that from my experiences I don't think a majority of spectrumites don't have that trait.

I've always figured that the part about "imagination" had more to do with cultural stereotypes about "imaginative people."

I fit the description for alexithymia with the exception of the "imagination" part. However, our society in general seems to assume that "creativity" and "emotional" go hand-in-hand.

I'm very creative and artistic, but I'm not "emotional," nor do I care about expressing "emotions" in my work. I have no idea what I'm feeling most of the time, at least not until several hours, if not days, after the fact. I enjoy reading fiction, analyzing and creating art, and science fiction.....but I am not emotional.