Automatic empathy vs empathetic reasoning

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I've been told I don't have much empathy. I think that's only partly true and I want to understand empathy better. The recent thread about Aspies having too much empathy was very interesting, but I really don't identify with what was said there, so I'm trying to develop my personal theory on this.

I don't automatically feel other people's emotions just because they're there. I may be consciously aware of them, but I don't share them. However, I can feel them if I let myself get involved in them. If I start thinking about what it would be like if I was in their situation then I'll feel their emotions to some degree. I think the degree depends on how much I identify with that person. Most of the time, though, there's just no benefit to sharing a negative emotion. This post is a great example:

I read that soon after discovering WP and thought "wow! that is so me!"

It's a bit like suspension of disbelief when watching a movie. I can choose to temporarily act as if I believe magic exists, because it's useful - it increases my enjoyment of a Harry Potter movie. Similarly, I can choose to think about what it would be like to be in another person's situation if it's useful, which indirectly leads to me sharing their feelings. In other situations it's not useful. For example, there are video games where you get points for running over innocent pedestrians with your car (like Grand Theft Auto and Carmageddon). It's fun! It wouldn't be fun if I felt empathy for those pedestrians, so I don't. There's no reason to. In real life, however, I would never do this (even if there were no consequences for me), because I would think about what it would feel like for the person to be run over by a car.

That's how it works for me, but I think many others (perhaps most NTs?) experience empathy automatically, without any control over it. They probably think that this is the only kind of empathy, so if you don't have that then you have no empathy! I suspect they're the people who think that killing people in video games leads to killing people in real life.

Wikipedia has a short paragraph that seems relevant under http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathy#Practical_issues



Does your empathy work this way? I'd love to hear a better explanation.

Empathy this, empathy that, look, most people (not all, but most) only seem to have empathy for those who have had similar experiences, whether it's good or bad. That is why NTs don't have empathy for Aspies.

If NTs all had this empathy thing, why am I panicking so much about going on vacation next week because of feeling rejected when my aunt gets fancied (for the third time) by the coach driver and I don't? When the pratty coach drivers fancy my aunt, they don't seem to give a s**t about how the person with my aunt is feeling. They don't stop and think, ''I won't smother this woman when there's her mate or sister or whatever with her because that's not fair on them, it's their holiday too, I should just leave them to do things together and I will just talk to them both, even though secretly I like this one. How would I like it if I went on holiday with my brother or my uncle and some woman kept on at them and left me feeling completely ignored? It wouldn't feel very nice for me, so it can't feel very nice for this woman's friend/sister/neice''.

But no, they don't think like that - they just want one thing and one thing only, which is sex - whether they have a wife back home or not. Explain to me where the empathy is in that.

I'm not getting at the OP, I'm just giving my honest opinion about NTs and empathy because I live in such a self-centered society that I don't understand where people get this ''NTs have empathy'' thing from. Not saying they lack it completely but neither do I and I'm Aspie. Ironically, I've even been told that I need to be a little more selfish than what I am in order to get a little more respect.

I'm similar, I usually only feel empathy if I can actually put myself into the other person's shoes and really think about it. I mean, I try to do the right thing in the right circumstance but can I really show true empathy? Not unles I really really try and put myself in their position.

Here's a distinction for, or against, a general empathy experience in people:

1) A trouble that stems from "theory of mind"-- the natural ability to predict the intentions of others -- or to fully enough gauge their mind in realtime communication.

2) to have this theory of mind one needs the ability to intuit "body language" in realtime.

One needs these 2 to experience " empathy."

Everyone more or less can do this with enough social experience.

I've gleaned trouble with this theory of mind with introverts in their introvert forums, e.g "couldn't read body language until +30's age." Or the High IQed have trouble with gauging theory of mind-- it's not intuitive here-- different minds different perspectives.

It's all a spectrum.

FMX,

There are two parts to Empathy; Cognitive and Emotional.

Some people have only Cognitive or Emotional, and some have equal parts of both.

For me, my Emotional Empathy is incredibly disproportionate to my Cognitive Empathy. I can walk into a room and actually feel the emotions in the room latch onto me. I do have some Cognitive Empathy, which is imagining how someone might feel in a certain situation, but I need to have experienced that situation myself. When my Cognitive Empathy IS working, that makes my Emotional Empathy really intense...it's like I'm living through the whole experience again, even though it is someone else.

It sounds to me like you require Cognitive Empathy in order to feel the Emotional Empathy, but that you need some time to analyze first, before the Cognitive kicks in.

Also, I think that most of the time if someone is telling you that you don't have empathy, they are actually upset because you're not expressing sympathy. Why should it matter to them if you actually feel sad, so long as you make it clear that you have concern for their situation?

I'll compress and use layman's terms that are not 100% accurate for the sake of simplicity.

Empathy is the product of the human mirror neuron system. Mirror neurons are specialized neural networks in the brain that trigger a 'simulated' response from audiovisual stimuli. That simulated response is similar to a virtual reality type of simulation..in essence the mirror neurons 'trick' the rest of your brain into a responsive state to the stimuli input.

Mirror neurons were first discovered when scientists in a lab had a couple of monkeys with sensors on their heads doing tasks. They were trying to map which neural pathways controlled motor functions. One monkey lifted a cup and the computers recorded which neurons fired up when he did that. One day however they had two monkeys in the same cage and they were surprised that when one monkey lifted the cup the second monkey observing the first had his motor neurons fire..but that monkey's hands were not moving. The observer monkey was simulating lifting the cup in his brain.

Human mirror neuron networks are much more complex than a monkey's. Our brains have 3 'layers' . Lets just call them the 'primitive' layer, 'animal' layer and 'human' layer (not accurate but its illustrative). The primitive layer is the smallest and deepest in your skull. It processes emotions, autonomic functions, instinct and basic motor control. The animal layer is much larger and contains audiovisual processing, memory, fine motor control, speech centers and other important things. The human layer is the outermost layer...it is deeply linked to the animal layer but most importantly, the human layer contains the cognitive centers. In essence you are sentient because of this layer.

The mirror neuron system connects all three layers like a high speed highway.

It is that mirror neuron system that allows people to 'feel' other's emotions. The audiovisual input of a child crying her heart out triggers the response of the mirror neuron system letting the person 'simulate' the child's pain/emotional stress in his brain for a brief moment (or longer if he keeps observing the child since the mirror neurons keep firing).

However that simulation is not always accurate. Its what the person THINKS the other is feeling. Since the mirror neuron functions instantly there is no time to process the simulation to decide if the child is crying because she is hurt or because she is happy or because she just felt like crying.

Take a look at this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CH2gWrUeo7M . Advance to 2:15 . This kid is crying because shes so happy to go to disney. If you show the video to someone starting that time stamp with mute on people will think she is crying because she is in pain or something.. but that is not the case.

...and now you know why good actors are so good: their trade is to trick your mirror neuron system.

And this is why you say that NT's experience this automatically. Fact is, they do.

Autism/AS has been identified as having 'issues' with the mirror neuron system. Research done by Dr. Ramachandran (sp?) has shown that those with autism have the mirror neuron system wired differently.. aka they can watch the video of this little girl crying and either not feel a thing or the mirror neuron system functions but it doesnt 'report' to the emotional centers but rather to the cognitive centers of the brain (which processes the info and then contacts the emotional centers..hence the delayed empathic response).

Other studies have shown the 'primitive' center of the brain being blocked or creating a block to the audiovisual stimuli as it gets transmitted through the mirror neuron system.

You use the title 'automatic empathy vs empathic reasoning' .. I would say its 'Empathy' (mirror neuron) vs. 'Sympathy' (cognitive) .

Yup.

Great explanation, Dantac, thank you! Yes, I didn't know the right terminology to use. Maybe I'll go with "empathy (mirror neuron) vs empathy (congnitive)". I read the "empathy vs. sympathy" debate in the thread I linked to, but I still think my response (when I have it) is empathy. Sympathy without empathy would be wishing them well (like a doctor wants their patients to get well while not experiencing their pain), but when I think about what it would be like for the other person I experience their emotion - or at least some shadow of what I think their emotion is.

Of course, it's not black and white. I do experience empathy automatically sometimes as well. The video you posted was an interesting case. At first I muted it and skipped to 2:15, like you said. I saw the girl's facial expression and yes, it looked to me like she was upset, but I didn't really feel anything. "OK, a kid is crying. Well, they do that all the time. Maybe there's a good reason for it, maybe she is some spoilt little brat - who knows?" Then I watched the whole video, with sound on. I didn't cry over it or anything, but I definitely felt a bit of "awww... that's so sweet" (not just thought it). Was that mirror neurons or was it because I quickly thought "damn, there are some good parents in the world after all, who do stuff for their kids that my parents would never even think to do for me. If I got something like that as a kid... wow!" ? It's hard to say which.

I like your explanation, too. Yes, and it's no just that I need some time to do it, but also that most of the time I choose not to do it at all. I don't consider that a bad thing, either. Why would I want to feel someone's pain when there is no useful purpose for that? If some NTs can't help it - too bad for them. I can and I do. On the other hand, I think my (cognitive) empathy can actually be more accurate in more complex situations.

I can't imagine what would be like to just walk into a room and have the emotions of the room latch onto me! That sounds terrible!

I know you weren't getting at me. I agree - the more we can identify with someone the more likely we are to feel empathy for them. It works that way for me, too. As for the sex thing - yes many young males are obsessed with it and it's considered quite socially acceptable in that culture to say whatever you need to say to a girl to get her into bed, whether it's "I think you're beautiful" or "no, I don't have a girlfriend" or "I want to marry you someday". It's not that they particularly want to hurt the girl, they just don't think about whether or not they're hurting her - so yes, NT empathy isn't always automatic either!

It's interesting that you mentioned learning to be more selfish. I think I learnt it as well - nobody told me, I just realised early on that if I don't look out for my own interests nobody else will. People have told me that I'm selfish, too, but I genuinely don't think I'm more selfish than the average person - I'm simply more honest about it. For instance, where an NT might make some lame excuse for not doing someone a favour that they don't want to do I might just say "no, I'm not going to do that for you".

I don't think we lack empathy as a general rule. I just think we don't pretend to have it when we don't, which is common in NT land. So our lack of false empathy is being recognized as a deficit, instead of what it actually is, integrity.

I don't think my mirror neurons have a problem. I can look at a facial expression and sort of "feel it". I've also noticed that it's hard to watch some dare-devil person walking an unprotected tight-rope without getting a little bit of a butterfly sensation in my stomach. I don't think it's really a cognitive analysis or sympathy as it's too automatic.

I'm also quite sympathetic when people are upset or having problems, but I'm not that great at knowing what to say to cheer them up or make them feel better. I just try to listen and be as respectful as possible, and offer advice if I know of any.

What I do seem to have a problem with is the social protocol of "taking interest in other people". I can't easily fake being interested in listening to someone else's life story if I don't have little in common and don't have the same interests. A lot of the topics that are supposed to be some kind of social glue for NT's meeting other NT's, like discussing careers, where you've lived, your family, etc... just doesn't hold any interest for me. Learning little tidbits about other people's lives is something NT's seem naturally inclined to do but I can't help but feel like the things are trivial and uninteresting, even if they make other people feel like they're bonding.

So I may un-empathetic in the sense that I can't automatically "take interest" in other people I have nothing in common with. But I don't think I have any trouble noticing emotions in others through tone-of-voice, body-language, and/or other clues. In many cases I notice too easily and it can make me feel overwhelmed or distracted. Also, when I notice someone is upset I usually do feel sympathetic.

Anyways, just adding my own personal experience...

I'm not sure if you feel similarly, but I'm much better at connecting with images than I am verbal communication. If I see someone is distressed, I will feel distressed. However, if that person then begins to explain why they are upset, I switch into analytical mode, and it's like it blocks off my ability to connect emotionally.

Are you familiar with the popular Youtube trend in which people, usually teenagers, hold up cue cards or sheets of paper that explain a difficult time or event they've experienced? It's often related to being bullied. I find I can sit and watch those videos until the end, and be interested in the person's story and feel quite bad for them...but if someone were to sit on Youtube and actually verbalize that story, I'd have no patience for it. I have very little patience when people speak, unless it's something I'm already interested in. So, I don't think it's that I'm not interested in what they have to say, I'd just rather SEE it (ie written down) than HEAR it.

Hmmm...this makes me wish that I had little communication cards I could hold up when I don't feel like talking. haha.

Mirror neurons allow you to have empathy because its an instantaneous 'simulation' in your brain of what you perceive the other person to be experiencing. Sympathy is a conscious/cognitive response whereas empathy is autonomic.

Socializing is the most intensive exchange between mirror neuron function and cognitive function. You are processing visual input from the other person's body language (including facial expressions) and auditory (voice tone) through your mirror neurons while simultaneously processing language and cognitive response. Thing is, the cognitive response is directed by the mirror neuron input so quite literally, if you mis-read or have a 'glitch' in the mirror neuron processing it will pass over to the cognitive response as a false reading (smiling happy or smiling sarcastically?) or a 'divide by zero error' (brain goes into blue screen of death... ergo the 'what do i say?! CRAP its taking too long now its awkward! moment).

(the above is an analogy to illustrate.. no one really knows yet why this happens).

What you describe of 'interest' in other people lives is the infamous bonding through small talk... and what is small talk but the paragon of body language / voice tone based exchange of clues as to what one person considers important enough to tell you or that they expect you share something in return. Flirting is another ballistic exchange... I personally can't tell if a girl is giving off 'signals' because I simply dont see them..and months later other people tell me she had been doing that for a long time until she gave up. I can interpret a smile, most tones of voice, etc.. but not instantly. It takes me a split second to decide what is and what isnt.

In any case, its also a spectrum condition. Some can have the mirror neurons slightly wired differently, others may have them short-circuited.