Does my employee have Asperger?

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Is it Asperger?

I have a subordinate that I suspect has Asperger.
She has many positive sides, but also many difficult ones, that are problematic for me and for the company.

She has some traits with her that fit the bill perfectly – but others that don’t seem to be typical Asperger (from what I have read).

Typical Asperger traits:
Intelligent and knowledgeable.
Engaged
Has an incredible knowledge for specific products – show her an image of a detail, and she can tell you the type of product, the producer, the model, and often even the year
Has large collections of a few specific products, even though this is hard on her economy.
Often misses social cues
Says things that shock other people – and don’t see it herself
Understands things literally
Handles stress poorly – meltdowns for seemingly minor incidences
Family members with Asperger
(And a few others)

Traits that I am uncertain about (don't know if they have anything to do with Asperger):
Deals very poorly with criticism
Strange / faulty logic – she seems to feel very passionately about has a strong sense of logic, but this seems counter-intuitive to most other people. Also to people that are commonly recognized to be highly analytical and logical
Superior complexity – she has to give the impression of being extremely knowledgeable about everything, also things she simply does not know much about. Ex: she might tutor a quantum physicist about the Quantum Theory (based on info she has picked up from Science Illustrated), or disagree with a cardiologist in a general conversation about heart decease, on the basis of what she has read on forums, women’s magazines etc.
Is never wrong (in her own eyes).


Traits that might mean she does not have Asperger (goes against most descriptions):
Social –loves interacting with lots of different people, takes the initiative to social gatherings, can talk on the phone for hours etc.
Loves working with sales
Sense of humor and irony – she both understands and uses humor and irony in direct conversations (but has a problem with it when written).
Passionate – with her work, her social activities, her friends, her love life
Puts an effort into her appearance and has a good sense of fashion
Lies to keep up her appearance as flawless or knowledgeable
Not logical and analytical
Does not seem to need / follow routines
Has lots of trouble with computers
Good motor skills

I know she has had quite a lot of problems in her private life, and probably in her career as well, that I think are closely related to her behavior. But she is in denial of this, refuses to even try to change her behavior – or to even discuss it.
Had she had a diagnosis, I think her life would have been much easier. She would had more rights, financial and legal support etc. Since she has already had to deal with Asperger because of her family member with this condition, she already knows quite a lot about it. But apparently, she does not think she has it herself.

Some of her “typical Asperger traits” are also quite influential in her current job position. In a positive way because she is knowledgeable and engaged in her work, and on good days she is an amazing seller and good at making the customer feel cared for and special. In a negative way because she has to have things her way all the time, and creates a very negative atmosphere if not, and on bad days, she creates very negative tension with the other and also with the customers. But she does not seem to understand this, and does not understand my hints about not working directly with the customers on those days, for instance.

As she does not handle criticism well, I am not able to make her change in any way for now.
But my hope is that if she got diagnosed with Asperger, she might accept that she might need some guidance in how to interact with the customers and other employees (for instance a key word to indicate that the customer wants to stop the conversation and leave).
Also, it might be easier to get the acceptance from the other employees to accept some of the social blunders she does today, and to react less negatively to her meltdowns. (Personally I have started to treat her differently after I started suspecting Asperger, and it does seem to help).
If there is no change, I am afraid I don’t know for how long she can continue in her job, as the negative aspects easily overshadows her positive. She is, as mentioned before, immune both to corrections and to take to heart the problems she creates (for herself and for the company).
Finally, her economic situation might be better with a diagnosis.

But as some of her traits seem to counter my hypothesis about her having Asperger, I would like to get some input from more knowledgeable people on this topic. I need to be quite sure myself before I take the serious talk about this, as she obviously does not think she has Asperger. And if indeed it is likely to be Asperger, I need to be prepared for her counter arguments, since she already has knowledge on this topic.

Thank you for reading all the way to the end, and please understand that this is not a criticism of people with Asperger (who are as diverse as any other group of people), but simply a NT’s wonder about whether this person seems to have Asperger or not.

She could have traits of it. Hard to say if she actually has it. Not all aspies are good at computers and I have known some people with autism who love to talk on the phones and I know one man with autism who loves talking to people and he goes on and on. Plus not all aspies lack sense of humor. Some of us do have a great sense of humor.

Welcome to Wrong Planet. Reading your letter, I was playing detective. I'm trying to get the whole picture in my head. What I'm trying to ascertain is this, "What kind of industry do you two work in and what is her position?" From what I can gather is she is a sales clerk of medical products? Well, she doesn't seem to have social issues, that's for sure. Social issues are a huge problem with spectrumites. Some of us are capable of joking and going out to parties, but some of us are so socially awkward that when we do go out a problem might arise.

I also noticed you wrote 'intelligent and knowledgeable' as typical aspie traits. Kinda strange, but what I've found from this forum are the extremes of that trait: people proclaim they're either supersmart or below average.

Engaged. I'm not sure what that means. Engaged in her work? Able to engage in deep conversations with people? Engaged to be married?

Incredible knowledge for specific products. Hmm. NT's as well as aspies can have incredible knowledge for specific products. What you might find is some aspies have incredible knowledge for specific product that no one cares about or wants to hear about!

I'm not sure Asperger's runs in families. I'd have to research that. My family is relatively huge - 5 siblings, countless aunts & uncles, cousins, nephews and nieces, and I'm the only one diagnosèd with Asperger's.

Says things that shock people which she doesn't see herself. Okay. That one is definitely an aspie trait. I sometimes find it hard, or I misinterpret, peoples expressions and mistakenly say something which can shock them to the marrow. My ex-girlfriend's brother-in-law wanted to beat me up one day, but to this day
I still don't have a clue what I said that got him so irate. Not a clue.

Understands things literally. Yep. Aspie trait.

Meltdowns for minor incidents. Yep. Aspie trait.

Maybe you could notice, while she's not looking, if she stims - maybe rocks back and forth, shakes her legs continuously, bites her knuckles, twists her hair nonstop, things like that. Maybe one day you can enourage her - I don't know how you'd do it - to take some of those aspie quizzes. They're kinda accurate, especially the Baron-Cohen one that prints out the graph. Good luck.

It is not possible to say whether your employee has AS or not.

Unless it's impacting her job, I don't see why it matters if she insists on debating with a professional on a field she is not a professional in. That is really between her and the other person.

And concerning that, she might not actually be debating, but phrasing her questions poorly. And she might actually be correct on some of those occasions...doctors and the likes are not always up on current literature.

But if it's not relevant to her job I don't see why it should matter.

Does she really have to have everything her way or is it just a few things that stand out to others? Frequently, people make concessions without others realizing it. Is there a particular reason she needs these things her way? And does it matter so much to her co-workers because it impedes their work or because they just have personal issues with it?

Some people do indeed have problems with criticism. Most do, to some extent. However others have problems properly critiquing because they let issues brew so long that when they finally approach the person directly, they they're upset, and their "critique" becomes an attack.

I would not "drop hints" if you have a valid issue with something she does. I would be direct, however I would be careful not to phrase my critique as an attack. You should also be open to understanding the reasons she might be operating in such a way. It might actually be an issue she is working with in the most optimal way it can be worked with.

Why worry so much about whether she has it or not? You seem to have a good handle on what her strengths and weaknesses are for the job. Isn't that enough information? It's not really anyone's business but hers whether she has AS if she doesn't feel a need to share that information.

Convincing someone they have Asperger's when they deny it is usually a futile exercise, especially when you're not family or a close friend. You've brought it up to her, and that's all you can do. Accommodate her the best you can and keep her appraised when her position comes into jeopardy.

She might have it. Most of the non-aspie traits you mentioned are stereotypical and don't apply to all people with AS (for instance I put effort into my appearance and having AS doesn't automatically mean you're good with computers). All people with AS do have some degree of social difficulties though- that doesn't mean not being social you can have social difficulties but still enjoy socializing, it's also possible that she managed to learn decent social skills over the course of her life so it's hard to say.

But even if she has AS I'm not sure her getting a diagnosis is going to solve anything. She's still going to be the same person after getting diagnosed, it's not going to change anything unless she uses the diagnosis to get therapy services and from what you've described of her she probably won't be willing to do that. I'm not quite sure why you think a diagnosis will help her financially? Getting a diagnosis is very expensive, so is getting therapy, and since she has a job she won't be eligible for disability benefits as far as I know. As for co-workers being more tolerant of her, why should having an official diagnosis change that? She is who she is; she shouldn't have to spend hundreds of dollars and take the time to get a diagnosis for that.

Not that I think getting a diagnosis is a bad thing... I have found getting a diagnosis very helpful in understanding myself and coping with my challenges, but I recognized that I had difficulties and wanted to get help. If she doesn't want one and is functional without one I don't think it's going improve things. I think you're better off bringing up specific areas she needs to improve in and telling her directly that if she doesn't try to change her job may be at stake. If you still think she should get diagnosed I would bring it up in a gentle manner; rather than confronting her maybe you can lend her a copy of "Pretending to be Normal" by Liane Holliday Willey and say something like, "I think you'd find this interesting, maybe you can relate to some of it."

Thaks for your answers

I will try to clarify some things:

Welcome to Wrong Planet. Reading your letter, I was playing detective. I'm trying to get the whole picture in my head. What I'm trying to ascertain is this, "What kind of industry do you two work in and what is her position?" From what I can gather is she is a sales clerk of medical products? Well, she doesn't seem to have social issues, that's for sure. Social issues are a huge problem with spectrumites. Some of us are capable of joking and going out to parties, but some of us are so socially awkward that when we do go out a problem might arise.
She is a sales clerk yes of products where good product knowledge and a certain medical knowledge is important, yes


I also noticed you wrote 'intelligent and knowledgeable' as typical aspie traits. Kinda strange, but what I've found from this forum are the extremes of that trait: people proclaim they're either supersmart or below average.
I know that people with Asperger come with IQs from 80 to super smart, but they often seem quite knowledgeable on certain fields, at least. I also mention this because I wonder if it might have made her better at imitating social skills

Engaged. I'm not sure what that means. Engaged in her work? Able to engage in deep conversations with people? Engaged to be married?
Engaged in her work. And engaged in her chosen social activities (so engaged that she has periods where she forgets about her engagement for her work)

Incredible knowledge for specific products. Hmm. NT's as well as aspies can have incredible knowledge for specific products. What you might find is some aspies have incredible knowledge for specific product that no one cares about or wants to hear about!
Well, yes, both of those. She is great with the products in general. But she is also extremely interested in more obscure products nobody really cares about (and that we might not even sell). And she might very well manage to start a conversation about this product, and then go on for an hour or two if nobody stops her (I do that when I see that the customer starts to look tired, and she will then often be angry at me later)

I'm not sure Asperger's runs in families. I'd have to research that. My family is relatively huge - 5 siblings, countless aunts & uncles, cousins, nephews and nieces, and I'm the only one diagnosèd with Asperger's.
Apparently there is a genetic component, but that doesn't mean that is always has to be present.

Says things that shock people which she doesn't see herself. Okay. That one is definitely an aspie trait. I sometimes find it hard, or I misinterpret, peoples expressions and mistakenly say something which can shock them to the marrow. My ex-girlfriend's brother-in-law wanted to beat me up one day, but to this day
I still don't have a clue what I said that got him so irate. Not a clue.
Why don't you ask your ex-girlfriend (if you still talk to her now and then)
She sometimes seems to understand that people have problems with her, but most of the time, she thinks people think highly of her, while I might know that is far from the truth

Understands things literally. Yep. Aspie trait.

Meltdowns for minor incidents. Yep. Aspie trait.

Maybe you could notice, while she's not looking, if she stims - maybe rocks back and forth, shakes her legs continuously, bites her knuckles, twists her hair nonstop, things like that.
I'll have a closer look I am quite accustomed to be around people doing all sorts of things (I have studied informatics and science, amongst other things). So I tend to ignore stims.

Maybe one day you can enourage her - I don't know how you'd do it - to take some of those aspie quizzes. They're kinda accurate, especially the Baron-Cohen one that prints out the graph.
That's what I would like to do. I am just afraid that she will "fake it", by answering what she wants to be true. Like the way she seems to not understand that her social skills are actually quite poor, giving her lots of problems. Thus I need to find out if I am really onto something here or not. Go through it with her beforehand
Good luck.

She might have aspects of narcissistic personality disorder. Outofthefog.net has useful information. www.dsm5.org, if you search for narcissistic personality disorder, has information.

There is an often repeated saying: "If you met one Aspie, you've met one Aspie." Even two Aspies from the same family will likely have different issues.

If she has a close relative who is diagnosed, then she probably already knows, or will soon realize, if she has it too.

An Aspie diagnosis is seldom of any help to a grown-up unless they need SSI -- all the programs are for children (and many of those are of debatable value). That is one of the reasons there are so many of use who are not bothering to seek official diagnosis.

One thing you can do for her: Keep in mind that we often don't "get" subtle. If you need her to understand something, say it straight. If any of her traits are causing genuine trouble, implement progressive discipline while helping her find ways to learn better social skills.

It's hard to say. Not enough information.

Though when you mention that she has a family member with Aspergers I am reminded of something in Tony Attwood's book. Basically to the effect that neurotypical people can pick up some AS traits from living with a family member that has AS. It is not unusual for someone with an AS sibling to develop some of the traits themselves even if they are not AS. This is one reason why it is hard to tell.

Though one misconception many people make is that the word 'syndrome' implies a disease, this is probably because the most well known syndrome is Down syndrome. What the word syndrome actually means is that a person meets a certain list of traits. If she has enough of these traits to qualify as Aspergers then she has it, if she doesn't meet enough of the traits then she doesn't. That's why two different people who are both AS can still be very different, because you don't need to meet all of the traits on the list to qualify as having Aspergers.

I'd just recommend addressing the traits that need addressing, I don't know how helpful a diagnosis would really be.

Have you told her in a direct and concrete way that her behaviour is unacceptable? It wouldn't matter if she is aspie or not, you really need to have this conversation with her and explain what you expect of her. If she cannot take on-board this criticism and improve then there is not much you can do with her.

Jason.

I'm self-diagnosed that I have Asperger's, I've worked sales, and I've done well.

I tend to have an A game and a C game and not too much of a B game.

I agree with the above that trying to convince someone they have Asperger's may not be the highest probability approach.

Maybe you could sell her on the analogy that a veteran, seasoned baseball pitcher learns to win when he doesn't have his best stuff. That is, he learns to win with his B game.