ToM, Logic, Deep Thinking

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I wasn't sure what to call this thread, I hope it gets a few hits. I'd like to ask everyone for your thoughts on this matter. I'm only giving this as an example.

My daughter is being assessed for autism and has just about completed the speech & language assessment, which has been done over the course of a few weeks. The first few times the therapist saw her, she assessed her basic language skills, which are at the high end of average. Last week, she was assessing her pragmatic language skills, which was done partly by observing her in class. Here's what happened: The teacher asked her, 'Why do people like listening to music?' My daughter was stumped, apparently. The teacher had to prise an answer out of her. Eventually she said that it helps them to relax, or something like that. The answer was fine, but it took a while to get there and she didn't seem comfortable with what she said. The therapist told me that was as expected for a child on the spectrum. So, when my daughter came home, I asked her about it. She said that she was being asked to answer an impossible question. She said, 'The teacher asked me why people liked listening to music. I know why I like listening to music, it helps me to sleep, but I don't know why other people like it. I can't read minds, how am I supposed to know what other people think, without asking them'.

Is she thinking too much?
Is she right? It seems logical.
Is everyone else just being presumptive, i.e. they think they know what others' thoughts are?
Does this sound like a ToM problem?

Any thoughts on the matter would be great. As I said, this is just an example. Please add your own.

It is more likely a ToM problem if she is autistic, but it might also be that she knows that people's minds are unique and that her point of view cannot accurately represent every person on earth. To me it's very logical.

Yup, your daughter's absolutely right in my book.
But then, if they'd asked ME why I like music, I'd probably have to ask to what particular piece of music they were referring

Actually, I read somewhere that it's common in aspie children to assume that everyone thinks the same as they do, and interprets things in the same way. If this is true then your daughter may be the only NT in the class;-P

It's a very well thought out response and reflects reality. Your daughter can only guess at why others listen to music. I listen to music while I jog just to have something to keep pace with so I know how fast my steps are. It's not relaxing, exactly. In fact, music often energizes me.

So, she is right. She cannot possibly know without asking others why they do things. No one can. Assumptions are often wrong but the world seems built on them.

Sure, she could list possible reasons why people listen to music, but this type of response is vague and doesn't reflect the reasons of individual people.

Is this what is meant by theory of mind?
I've been having a little trouble understanding what that really meant, and what it really was.

Reminds me of some of the work I've been doing with the psychologist that's currently assessing me for AS. We've been doing a long questionnaire, some of the questions deal with understanding what others think and feel.

When asked if I easily understood when someone was upset (without them telling me or knowing something happened to them) and how I would react to it if I understood I answered that if I knew something had happened to someone, say divorce or death of friend/family I would understand that they were upset, but if I had to imagine how they felt my only "tool" would be to imagine the same happening to me and trying to imagine how *I* would feel and how I would like other people to treat me.

If it was someone I knew well I might know how they personally would like to be treated, but as I said, only if I knew them well.

If I had been asked why I thought people liked to listen to music I too would think why on earth would I know why other people liked to listen to music?

But as an adult with coping skills I would probably understand what the teacher wanted me to answer, but I wouldn't really be answering the question, since *I* just don't know what music means to other people than myself.
Is this theory of mind?

I always assume people do things for the same reason I do and I also go by what I have read online and observed. Ask me why do people like to listen to bass? That would stump me but I can't see how anyone who doesn't like bass would be able to answer it.

Your daughter's answer makes purrrfurrrt sense to me. How am I supposed to know why other people like music or anything else?

Ma'am, how old is your daughter?


TheSunAlsoRises

What does the control group answer to the same question? I mean, NT kids.

I drew a blank at first, reading the question she was asked. What does this mean, why do people like it? Then I thought, people like listening to music because they like music, so listening to it feels good. Then I thought, people also like to play music because they like music, so playing it is fun. Once you like it, you can use it for different things, but why would anyone listen to it or play it if they don't like to listen or play, unless someone made them do it? And how could they like listening to it or playing it if they didn't like music to begin with?

Why do people like ice cream? Because it's good. Why might some people not like it? Because they don't think it's good. Everything else is just details. Am I wrong?

I probably could not answer this question when I was a child, but that sounds like an extremely well-though answer for a 6.5 year old child! I am rather impressed actually.

Sincerely,
Matthew

This is the sort of question my psychologist would ask me to illustrate lack of imagination. He says an aspie's imagination is likely to be just as good as an NT's, in the usual way we think of the term (i.e. thinking up a story or picturing something we haven't seen before). But what it refers to here is the ability to imagine what another person might be thinking, to imagine the meaning 'between the lines', that sort of thing.

My response to such questions would usually begin with "Well, I couldn't really say for sure, but...", whereas an NT might be more comfortable with coming up with multiple responses by imagining what a typical person might think or feel and just giving those as answers, more confidently.

I'm undecided as to whether I think we really have trouble imagining, or whether we are just reluctant to assume things.

My current stance is that I think saying those with AS are lacking in this area is a bit inaccurate. We may find it more difficult to think up possible thoughts and feelings in another person's head, but we also have the intelligence to realise that we can't possibly know for sure. I think our response to such questions, and the response your daughter gave to you, may show both a deficit and a strength.