Page 1 of 1 [ 11 posts ] 

Odin
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Oct 2006
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,475
Location: Moorhead, Minnesota, USA

16 Sep 2012, 4:33 pm

I get rather annoyed at the notion that everyone on the spectrum is an introvert, it's based on a misconception that "introvert" = unsociable and "extrovert" = likes to be with people. Jung originally defined extroverts as preferring "objective" facts of the outside world and introverts as preferring "subjective" awareness of one's "inner world".

I type under MBTI as an INTJ, but going by Jung's original meaning, I'm an "ENTJ", with dominant Extroverted Thinking and auxiliary Extroverted Intuition,

The Extraverted Thinker

Quote:
- Observers' Impression of the Type

To the observer, many often view the ET type as being a slave or drone to external ideas, principles, and laws. There seems to be no sense of personal or subjective thinking that goes on. Everything the ET type does is accordance to universal view and anything that stands against it is wrong or ignored. The universal system is law and authority. Thus to many outsiders, the ET type appears rigid and simple-minded. As Jung puts it, it gives the impression to the observer as if the ET type is short-sighted or lacks personal freedom, as if incapable of thinking for themselves.


- The True Nature of Extraverted Thinkers

The ET type him or herself, however, knows and understands that this is far from the truth. All extraverted types project a personal or subjective archetype or will into the external object from the Ego Complex and with that they are capable of manipulating the outer world data. They understand that the laws of the external world must not be tampered with, however, for the sake of adaptation and survivability. Thus, ET types possess a personal or subjective archetype that they can use to manipulate the external world, but as the ET type understands, it must be within the boundaries of the external world's law and ideas. ET types know that if the external system was ignored or tampered with, then the external system would reject the ET's results. Thus, maintaining and working within the external boundaries is the ET's mode of adaptation to the external system for acceptance, success, and survivability.

For example, many would often view the ET type as being slaves or drones to the Scientific Method because of it's universal standardization. The ET type, however, only see the scientific method as a mere tool to be used, not to be slaved to. They will not tamper with the scientific method, but will, nonetheless, apply their own personal thinking when working within the boundaries of the scientific method. In many ways, ET types are quite adept at finding "loop holes" in external system as they spend most of their time finding ways to apply personal archetypes and images into rigid external systems to not only produce results that they desire, but one that will appear acceptable to the external system.

The ET type saying is thus, "I will not change the system or tamper with it. Instead, I will work with the system and around it, regardless if I agree or disagree with the external system. I will not slave to it, however. I have my own personal ways that I prefer for doing things, but I will make sure when I apply it externally it will only be within or around the limits of these external rules. This is my mode of adapting to the world for survival"


The Auxiliary Functions - Sensation and Intuition

The Extraverted Thinking type lends itself to three different flavors:
the Empirical Thinker, the Idealistic Thinker, and the Intuitive Thinker.

The Empirical Thinker - Ego ET+ES | Shadow IF+IN

The Empirical Thinker possesses an Extraverted Sensation auxiliary function, while Introverted Intuition becomes an auxiliary to Introverted Feeling in the Shadow. In this type of Extraverted Thinking, the individual is more concern with perceptions of sensational reality. Because the irrational function is an auxiliary and not a superior function, it is subordinated to the will of the superior function and can never act against or independently of it. With the ET function leading, the ES function may only perceive external sensational data that adheres to external law and system. Any other ES data is filtered out and removed. Thus, the empirical thinker only seeks out external empirical sensational data that is within the boundaries or useful to the system. Since Introverted Intuition exists in Shadow form, it may manifest itself as extreme paranoia and suspicion.

For example, Antoine Lavosier, an Extraverted Thinker, only sought empirical sensational data that was useful to him and the scientific method. If any extraneous sensational information emerged, it was rejected. If it adhered to the scientific method, it was useful. If it was against the system, such as missing variables or lacking required data, then it was rejected. In Lavosier's case, if certain measurements were not obtained from sensational data, then it would not be useful to the scientific method, and therefore useless and rejected.

Charles Darwin is also another example of an Empirical Thinker who developed his theory of natural selection with empirical sensational data he observed with his own five senses when traversing the wildlife, but made sure what he observed adhered to external laws and system.


---

The Idealistic Thinker - Ego ET S/N Shadow IF

This type of Extraverted Thinker does not possess differentiated or abstract auxiliary functions. Instead, they remain in their concretic forms, possessing qualities of both Conscious and Unconscious at the same time. Unlike Empirical and Intuitive Thinkers, because their auxiliary functions are less differentiated, they have less functionality and significance to the type. This type utilizes Thinking in its more pure form, which Jung states is entirely possible as any human being can operate a healthy life with just the superior function alone. Thus, Idealistic Thinkers may be those who seek to actualize an external system, law, or belief onto the world, perhaps even reshape it. For example, the world is corrupt and with the Introverted Feeling function acting more strongly than for other two subtypes, the Idealistic Thinker may do whatever it takes to get it fix. They may, however, be much more forgiving of changes and tampering to external systems when compared to the other two subtypes.

For example, Light Yagami from Death Note willingly took it upon himself to save the world from evil. Justice had to be served and the current external laws were ineffective. Thus, he went to impose his own set of external laws onto the world and change it for the better. Anyone who opposed his law were evil and immoral and had to be eliminated, such as INTERPOL and the CIA. Unfortunately, because of his intense repression of the Feeling function into the Shadow Complex when undertaking his mass murdering, it seeped into his consciousness with childish thoughts and selfishness, leading to his mistakes and eventual downfall.

Another example is one by Jung himself in which he describes an indigenous tribe in South America of being prideful of its heritage and ways. He referred to this as an example of Extraverted Thinking at work because they are fighting for their system, laws, and ways against others who dare oppose their heritage and idealism.


---

The Intuitive Thinker - Ego ET+EN | Shadow IF+IS

Intuitive Thinkers possess an Extraverted Intuition auxiliary function, with a Shadow Introverted Sensation function. Unlike Empirical Thinkers who rely on perceptions of Empirical Sensational reality, the Intuitive Thinker relies more on perceptions of possibilities, information beyond the realm of empiricism and tangibility. Since its EN function is auxiliary and subordinated to the Superior function, it can only perceive intuitive data that aligns itself to external laws and system. Thus, like the Empirical Thinker, if the intuition relates to the external system, it is necessary and accepted. If it does not relate to the external system, it is useless and rejected. With Introverted Sensation as a Shadow, Intuitive Thinkers may suffer from extreme obsessive and/or compulsive disorders, and become irritable with personal sense-perceptions of tangible and empirical information that get in the way of possibility/probabilistic intuitive thinking.

Some theoretical physicists and mathematicians are good examples of this, but as Jung said, any type can be found in any field as there is invariably a random distribution of types. However, for the sake of this example, we'll be using a theoretical physicist.

A physicist is working with subatomic particles at a particle accelerator. He works on this research with adherence to external systems, such as what the project demanded or what the proper methodology for research is. With Extraverted Intuition, instead of relying on his empirical senses, the scientist relies more on his intuitive perception for gathering results for his research. He seeks possibilities and intangible information because to him, empirical sensational and tangible information is less useful. These intuitive information may appear in forms of theoretical mathematics or machines that predict the probability of subatomic particles in their behavior, density, charges, and purpose. With EN being subordinated, the individual will only seek intuitive information that is useful to the external system or idea. Intuitive Thinkers often are mistaken to be empirical and tangible types, but their reliance on intuitive possibilities over sensational empirical information makes them the type who are beyond tangibility.


---

- Extraverted Thinkers undergoing Personality Dissociative Disorder (PDD)

The ET type in this form of disorder loses his or her sense of personal identity because the ET type loses himself completely to objectivity. Their extraverted Ego Complex and Persona Complex is exaggerated and their introverted Shadow Complex is growing stronger in resistance. In a sense, law determines all that is right and wrong. Anything that adheres to law is right, and anything that is against it is wrong. This not only applies to the ET type, but he or she also expects others to follow in this view. The external law does not have to exist in the external world. An ET type may take his or her own personal code of law and force it onto the world as a means of what is right and wrong. Equally, a moral stance is made. Anything that adheres to law, formula, and system is good and just, and anything that denies is evil and immoral.

For example, an extraverted thinking priest may take a religious teaching in hand and, not promote, but force this teaching onto the world, dictating that these religious teachings are correct and anyone who denies or operates against it is immoral and evil who must be punished.

Another example, an extraverted thinking musician may be an extreme critic who praises those who follow the "correct teachings" of music, it could be his personal system or an establish universal system, but scolds those who dare play and compose music that runs contradictory to those law and ways.

And another example, an extraverted thinking basketball player who is extremely critical of how basketball should be played and how it should not be played. You either play it right by following these ways of dribbling and shooting, or you're playing it wrong. Another extraverted thinking basketball player may also force his or her own personal ways of dribbling onto others, and those who don't adhere to his personal ways are wrong and idiots.

A paramount example is that of Sigmund Freud, an extraverted thinker who made his ways of psychoanalytics the law that must be obeyed by all psychologists and those who were against his ways were immoral people who needed to be eliminated, or as Freud put it, "cultists who were treason to authority and truth". Freud, thus, had broke his connection with Adler and Jung because they refused to adhere to his system and law in the world of psychoanalytics.


- Extraverted Thinker's Shadow, the Introverted Feeling

In the Shadow Complex or Unconscious side of the human psyche, there exists an Introverted Feeling function for the Extraverted Thinker. The Feeling function processes information for value, meanings, and significance, for example, a flower is beautiful or that a certain statue symbolizes power or might. In a normal case, the Introverted Feeling shadow is subordinated somewhat to the Ego, allowing the Ego to exert some control over it's evaluating process.

When the IF function is being insubordinate, however, the Ego represses it deep into the Shadow. Example cases include the ET type requiring to use music at a party. His IF function may emerge, suggesting personal evaluating taste on track preferences, but the ET shuns this because the party has a list of tracks that must be played. This is a normal occurrence.

In the extreme and unhealthy case, however, when the Ego is exaggerated and the Shadow rebels, it may overwhelm the Ego, taking unconscious control over the human psyche in which the individual loses personal sense of control of his or her actions. The IF function, then, may become childlike and selfish, seeping its influence slowly into the conscious sphere. Thus, the Extraverted Thinker, who is required to only play certain tracks, may decide to slip in a few of his or her own personally chosen tracks into the mix which he or she may feel is "cool" without thinking, which consequently may cost his or her job. This occurs if the Extraverted Thinker fails to channel or accept his Introverted Feeling nature properly.

In a normal situation, the Extraverted Thinking and the Introverted Feeling function operate interchangeably on a daily basis, providing both adherence to external formula and personal evaluation of meaning and significance. For example, working with the Scientific Method and adhering to its rules, but at the same time, investing a bit of personal evaluated steps (which may alter or tamper with the Scientific Method) that the ET type feels are important or special. Thus, formula and law becomes less impersonal, and any mistakes or changes to the external system is deemed "acceptable" and in other cases "fun". Another example in the case of music, one may compose music that adheres to universal music theory, but may occasionally change it up with personal taste that one feels is "cool" or "sad" or any other form of evaluating reasonings.

Sometimes the Extraverted Thinker may feel trapped or pressured. The Persona Complex is exaggerated and the Ego Complex is without a decisive clue on what to do. The Shadow Complex, thus, in the name of adaptation and survival, may take control of the human psyche to get the individual out of the predicament. In this case, the Introverted Feeling is completely repressed, but re-emerges itself as a powerful archetypal demon, and the normal evaluating process completely disappears. System and law starts to become cold and the Ego suddenly feels itself no longer held back.

Extraverted Thinkers can be major idealists who seek to reshape the world with law, formula, and system. They desire to impress what they believe onto the world. When resistance becomes a problem and the Extraverted Thinker is with his or her back against the wall, their mind begins racing on what to do. As stated in previous paragraph, the Shadow Complex emerges and shuts down all evaluating process. Any sense of evaluation such as guilt, importance, and the likes are no longer computed. Instead, the Shadow Complex refocuses the Introverted Feeling towards one directive, the significance and value of the goal. It is an important goal that must be accomplished at all cost. Thus, in the name of adaptation and survivability, the Extraverted Thinker may go as far as resort to dishonesty and manipulation, even faking evidence in the name of his or her idealism. The End Justifies the Mean.


_________________
My Blog: My Autistic Life


SpiritBlooms
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Nov 2009
Age: 68
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,024

16 Sep 2012, 5:02 pm

I'm not sure I follow your argument, since Jung also mentioned where people draw their energy from. An extrovert is energized by being around others. I do think someone on the spectrum can be extroverted though. I'm fairly certain my dad was an Aspie, and he was about as extroverted as anyone I've ever known. He had to socialize, every day, or he wasn't happy.



1000Knives
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Jul 2011
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,036
Location: CT, USA

16 Sep 2012, 5:32 pm

I'm an ISTP. I'm quite a bit more outgoing than a lot of people I know, actually. That doesn't mean I'm socially awesome, it just means I'm outgoing. So a lot of times "NTs" have more social anxiety than me, but I'll just be oblivious to everything because I can't read the nonverbal cues and whatnot very well, so the nonverbal cues aren't taken into account, thus very little social anxiety, as it's hard to be anxious if you go no idea what to be anxious about. So thus sometimes people see me as outgoing and extroverted simply because of that.

As far as extroverted vs introvert, I think the two terms are sorta irrelevant. I think people can be introverted and extroverted at various times for a variety of reasons. I myself feel introverted at times, and extroverted at other times. So while there may be some people that are clearcut introvert or extrovert, I think for most, it's fairly down the middle and then it just changes with circumstances.



Eloa
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 9 Jun 2011
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,223

16 Sep 2012, 5:40 pm

As I understood it the Active-but-odd typus is more extrovert.
My psychologist said that this typus can easily be misdiagnosed as borderline personality disorder in some cases, so I guess that this typus can be quite more extrovert.


_________________
English is not my native language, so I will very likely do mistakes in writing or understanding. My edits are due to corrections of mistakes, which I sometimes recognize just after submitting a text.


SavageMessiah
Sea Gull
Sea Gull

User avatar

Joined: 16 Aug 2012
Age: 43
Gender: Male
Posts: 202
Location: Pittsburgh, PA, US

16 Sep 2012, 10:02 pm

Once again not a well-read psych person here, but wouldn't introverted / extroverted thinking be separate from int/ext social behavior? One could certainly think one way but act another.

To gain attention (since the conventions were boring), the best thing I could figure out how to do is act out "class clown" style around my peers. This, until I realized they were indifferent. In other words, aside from an "oh he's silly", I didn't garner anything more (positive or negative) than a dry well of an opinion in the public eye.

I then made a conscious decision to remain quiet. I guess this wouldn't qualify me as introverted to myself or even on paper, but instead to everyone else. I'm just glad I never genuinely faulted myself for not understanding or appreciating conventional lines of communication. So in this regard, I suppose introversion is not always a tendency but a decision to have people not consider you at all than consider you to be wholly insignificant.


_________________
AQ: 42
aspie-quiz: 151 / 47


Rascal77s
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Nov 2011
Age: 47
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,725

16 Sep 2012, 10:08 pm

I don't know anything about this personality type stuff but I'm sure you guys have researched the hell out of it and can explain it to me. I'm introverted by I'm not at all shy. I can often be openly aggressive. I have a natural tendency to dominate groups since I was a very young child probably because it's so difficult for me to see things from other peoples' perspective. But, I will not join a group unless I absolutely have to. I'm confused as to whether this would make me an introvert or an extrovert. What am I?



CrystalStars
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Aug 2012
Age: 29
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,901
Location: Home.

16 Sep 2012, 10:16 pm

People on the spectrum can be extroverted, they just present themselves more awkwardly than most.


_________________
-- Logan


AnotherKind
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Dec 2011
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 769
Location: Neverland

26 Sep 2012, 9:42 am

Rascal77s wrote:
I don't know anything about this personality type stuff but I'm sure you guys have researched the hell out of it and can explain it to me. I'm introverted by I'm not at all shy. I can often be openly aggressive. I have a natural tendency to dominate groups since I was a very young child probably because it's so difficult for me to see things from other peoples' perspective. But, I will not join a group unless I absolutely have to. I'm confused as to whether this would make me an introvert or an extrovert. What am I?


Introverted means to think more than act or to have a richer inner life. Introverted people tend to be more loners but they could be impusive in the same time. Impulsiveness and introversion are different personality traits. Also do not confuse introversion with the level of energy. Introverts tend to conserve their energy but that doesn't imply they look anemic and shy. They could be coleric also. Introversion has nothing to do with shyness.
Quote:
Introversion is not seen as being identical to shy or to being a social outcast. Introverts prefer solitary activities over social ones, whereas shy people (who may be extroverts at heart) avoid social encounters out of fear, and the social outcast has little choice in the matter of his or her solitude. (Wikipedia)


_________________
Agnostic atheist. Hardcore determinist. Misanthrope. Objectivist. INTP.
AS: 165, NT: 44


b9
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Aug 2008
Age: 52
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,003
Location: australia

26 Sep 2012, 9:57 am

Odin wrote:
I get rather annoyed at the notion that everyone on the spectrum is an introvert, it's based on a misconception that "introvert" = unsociable and "extrovert" = likes to be with people. Jung originally defined extroverts as preferring "objective" facts of the outside world and introverts as preferring "subjective" awareness of one's "inner world".

i am not scared to speak my mind to people. i will talk as long as they let me speak, but i really have no desire for them to hear what i have to say, because the world will go on it's merry course whether i am alive or not.

i find it to be a waste of energy to try to incorporate my ideas into other peoples heads, so i generally remain silent while i have stimulating conversations with myself.

i could be considered an extrovert who has nothing to say.



Raziel
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Oct 2011
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,616
Location: Europe

26 Sep 2012, 10:51 am

I guess I have an extroverted and introverted personality at the same time and in certain episodes in my life they just flips the other side around.
As a little child, even as a baby, I was highly introverted, then hitting puberty I was exptroverted and than I was both, but at the moment more introverted again.

So, you can be both at the same time. :D

I would guess that those ASD who are extroverted have more often ADHD in addition


_________________
"I'm astounded by people who want to 'know' the universe when it's hard enough to find your way around Chinatown." - Woody Allen


Last edited by Raziel on 27 Sep 2012, 11:02 am, edited 2 times in total.

JellyCat
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 1 Sep 2012
Age: 45
Gender: Female
Posts: 338
Location: U.K.

26 Sep 2012, 11:40 am

I love socialising, I do it whenever I have the energy.
I'm just not very good at it.
I only seem to find some types of interaction tiresome, many types give me energy.