Autism and Androgyny

Post Reply New Topic

http://keithsneuroblog.blogspot.com/201 ... l?spref=fb

Research presented last summer, linked above, showed an association of androgynous physical features and "high functioning" ASD.

I was wondering how many, identifying as having Asperger's Syndrome or another autism spectrum disorder, do or do not identify as having androgynous physical features. The article linked goes into detail of which androgynous physical features were more strongly linked among males and females diagnosed with a "high functioning" ASD, if anyone cares to comment if those associations of physical features applied to them specific to gender.

That's interesting. Up til now I had thought that the increased occurrence of lack of gender conformity among people with ASDs was simply due to our having difficulty picking up on cultural norms. That there might be a biological basis is quite intriguing. If ASD were merely masculinization, ASD guys would be hypermasculine--but they aren't. The opposite. They seem to be far less afraid to do things that are typically feminine, if they happen to enjoy those things. Similarly, females with ASDs don't seem to think too hard about whether something is feminine enough for them.

Do ASD people tend to be more androgynous? I don't know. I know I am, but I'm only one person. There's that intriguing hint of a difference in the HPA axis, too--but they don't have any data on that. Are they just speculating?

What about ASD people who identify strongly with their gender, though? There are a few hypermasculine ASD guys and hyperfeminine ASD girls out there. And on the flip side, there are transgendered people on the spectrum who identify so strongly as the opposite of their biological sex that it causes distress. Would the ASD tendency toward androgyny lower the threshold for being born transgendered and reduce the chances of being hypermasculine or hyperfeminine?

Last edited by Callista on 12 Nov 2012, 7:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I'm female, have a markedly longer ring finger than index finger, a large head, and only a few inches difference between my hips and waist.

The ASD girls had higher BMIs, too, though, so that could be the cause of their waist-to-hip ratio.

I have a normal BMI, but my hips are narrow and my waist isn't.

Lucky you. I have huge hips and a normal-sized waist, so I always have to buy pants two sizes too large and then alter them to make the waist small enough. If I didn't have such big hips and boobs like I do, I could pass as a guy if I wanted. I'd like to, occasionally. Sometimes I just feel... guy-ish.

lol I was thinking lucky you! I have small breasts, wide shoulders and wide waist/no hips--I have a hard time finding any women's clothes that fit! Talk about feeling like a guy...

I appear very androgynous. I find it quite adorable.

So hard to answer, because I don't identify with the Asperger's label. My diagnosis is Asperger's, but I identify as "autistic" or "autism spectrum disorder".

However, yes, definitely androgynous physical features. Hip to waist ratio for one.

It's interesting. I'm not sure what comes first for some the androgyny or the ASD. In the case of females, generally, higher levels of androgens have been associated. In the case of males, it has been studied recently among males with ASD's, and the overall levels are normal, but higher androgen levels are associated with more severe traits on the spectrum. That stands to reason, as in general both very low levels and very high levels of testosterone are associated with lower measures of standard IQ. Furthermore, recently, a firmer association has been made with higher levels of prenatal testosterone, and language development problems in males, as opposed to protection of language in females, in the general population, not specific to ASD.

When I say what comes first, the androgyny or the ASD, it would seem that with the general association of a lower inclination toward a "nurturing instinct", specific to emotional empathy with others, on average that would likely be lower among females with high levels of androgen and higher among males with lower levels of androgens. It could at least in part, explain the anecdotal accounts of aversion to babies, among some.

Culture can be really tough on the androgynous boys and girls, until they find there niche in life, but there still seems to be a greater propensity toward the repression of emotional language both verbal and non verbal among males in the culture, so that can be hard on emotional/empathizing androgynous boys, whereas it is encouraged, as a whole, among females potentially providing greater challenges among some females. Fitting cultural gender roles, also means fitting the expectation of non-verbal and verbal language expected from males and females. Empathy and androgens are not a static quality, potentially influenced by genetics, hormones, and environment.

Chronic stress from being bullied, or chronic stress with the chronic experience of intense empathy for others, can eventually results in the erosion of empathy, whereas those born with high levels of testosterone, and naturally lower levels of emotional empathy/nurturing instinct, can potentially have similar issues with verbal or non-verbal communication, as well potentially not feeling the same intrinsic rewards of social interaction with others. And, androgens naturally fall with an accompanied increase of the nurturing/bonding experience among males that become fathers. I don't know if that has been studied among females with higher naturally occuring levels of androgens, but I suppose it could be the case there as well.

It is hard to say what factors eventually result in a diagnosis of an ASD. It seems almost anyone with any type of overt characteristics could eventually be diagnosed depending on the environment they are exposed to; at least at this point in time.

The only real commonality seems to be the diagnostic criteria, but considering there are 2027 combinations to get to an Autism Disorder diagnosis, and one can be diagnosed with mandatory criteria that is unassociated with 6 other mandatory criteria out of 12, there is not always a great deal of commonality there either.

It appears that Western societies, in general, have been moving more from one of sexual dimorphism toward one of general androgyny, as well as the move away from patriarchy to egalitarianism, both culturally and physically. A pretty tough battle illustrated well recently in politics.

It is interesting the role the "pill" may have in this phenomenon as females taking the pill are less attracted to higher testosterone males. That in itself could provide an edge toward a less sexually dimorphic culture in the long run, but there are so many more factors potentially involved per the "androgynous frogs" and other potential environmentally related phenomenon. In addition culture itself is becoming one more and more of a systemizing culture, where many have to adapt to become systemizers even if that is not a particular strength for them.

Regarding the HPA axis, the higher levels of DHEAS, associated with youthful appearance in those studied that were older, was indicated as an issue for further research, that would likely require replication in a much larger varied study, to make any further analysis. That is very interesting, and it will be more interesting to see that research replicated with a greater portion of the spectrum than just those identified as "higher functioning".

There was a member here, that gave this autism and androgyny idea detailed thought and analysis, and wrote a book based on his own research, a couple of years ago, that in part mirrors the findings of the newest research, well after his book was published. His name is Andrew Lehman, he is the founder of the website "shift journal" and "neoteny.org".

Here is the link to his free book, of what he describes as a "new feminine theory that explains autism". Very interesting in the focus was on "a masculine theory of autism", when he published the book. His theory is much more complex than Samuel Baron Cohen's theories, but he had Cohen's support for his work, and who knows, it may have, in part, led Cohen down his more recent research path that is identifying gender neutral traits, rather than sexually dimorphic ones among those identified as having Asperger's Syndrome.

The general idea is the result of neoteny and the reduction of sexually dimorphic traits as a naturally occurring response of adaptation to the cultural and natural environment that can move in either direction. The impact of culture, though, is increasingly becoming a potentially much higher factor of change.

http://www.neoteny.org/download-evoluti ... al-change/

I am female and have autistic disorder and I am REALLY not sure about the answer to this. I mean I was born female, and no one has ever mistaken me for a male or been unsure (as far as I know) BUT do I don't feel I look as feminine as many of the other girls I went to school with. I really don't know though. I do have elevated testosterone though, and take a pill to correct that.

I'm male. I look male. But when i look in the mirror i see a stranger. It's not about gender for me, i just don't feel like i look. It stands to reason that anyone one the AS might have an issue correlating their image with their psyche. As far as gender is concerned, i really can't identify with either. We do tend to be nonconformists, no? I would say embrace whatever makes you content but be cautious who you trust.

I was teased in school for having a feminine face (high school too), so I guess that counts.

I see myself as male.

If this article is correct, it begs the question if some of the problems associated with AS are in fact caused by people being stuck somewhere between the gender binary. I know there is a higher percentage of LGB people with AS; and I can distinctively remember someone in another thread saying that 6% of the transgender population have AS; which is... well, I'm not sure about the numbers exactly, but it's probably monumentally huge.

If we are mentally androgynous, it could also help to explain why so many aspies either appear to be hyper-sexual or asexual.

The young look thing is quite cool too!

I chose the first selection. I am born male, have a masculine "occupation" and many traditionally masculine interests. Personality-wise I lean toward the feminine - as far as disliking most male group situations and most independent male behavior. The fact that I don't usually get bad service at retail places (many studies exist on attractiveness correlated to quality of treatment) generally attests to my perceived attractiveness as a male, though since I started cosplaying I found out I have features that make me "hot" by my standards. That may just be part of the wanting to complete one's self though. But with a bit of padding and a couple minor cosmetic adjustments I could probably completely pass 'en femme'. I've thought about going out in public that way but I'm too afraid of totally being taken the wrong way and having to explain to guys that there is absolutely nothing they can offer me. I'm hetero or "ML" if anything, plumbed to the skin I'm in.

One easy measure of androgynous features was provided in the article linked. A low digit ratio illustrated in the article, is a quick measure of at least one androgynous feature, however from my own observations, androgyny is not necessarily considered as masculinity or gender neutrality in a female, as some female athletes with low 2d/4d digit ratio, are considered feminine even though they have some androgynous features. And for instance, there are some men that have androgynous facial features, but what would most commonly be viewed as masculine bodies, per muscle mass. But, in general higher levels of testosterone are usually linked with bone and muscle mass, both of which can present in more androgynous facial features and other associated features in females and males.

From the informal poll it seems that the females are out numbering the males in identification of androgynous features at a 2 to 1 ratio vs. 4 to 1 ratio. It is seems difficult to parse out how culture might impact how one personally views androgyny, unless measured scientifically as it was in the study linked above.

It's interesting as the relationship in that study for females with androgynous facial features was significantly higher that that specific measure of androgyny in males. That would seem to correlate with the results of this informal poll, as I think one would be more likely to personally recognize androgynous facial features more than any other specific androgynous feature identified in the research.

One statistic that was interesting was that the ASD males in the study on average had a higher 2d/4d digit ratio than the control group males, which could indicate that overall the ASD males where exposed to lower levels of prenatal testosterone than the control group males. The ASD females actually had a slightly higher 2d/4d digit ratio than the control group females, even though they measured highly in androgynous facial, head, and serum testosterone levels.

I did a quick poll on 2d/4d digit ratio a couple of years ago here, that I should have separated like I did in this poll for Aspergers, other spectrum disorder, and biological male or female, to get a more detailed picture, as well as better instructions to measure digit ratio from the finger tip to the crease of the hand with a metric ruler, dividing the index finger measurement by the ring finger measurement and listing ranges of measurement in the poll, but that would have been a pretty complicated poll for someone to wade through and take the time and effort to provide that kind of detailed answer.

I'm tempted to do it, even if I don't get many people to answer, but here is the results of the first poll I did two years ago, and it appears from the comments that it was a highly identified issue among individuals identifying as biologically female, that one would not likely find in the general population.

http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/postxf144552 ... 67aa182d8c

The general results of the poll were not much different than what one might expect to find in the general population, without a specific identifier of biologically male/female, as the people responding in polls here are usually pretty equally divided among biologically identified males and females, even though statistically from recent government figures the ratio among individuals on the spectrum is a 5 to 1, male to female ratio.

Last edited by aghogday on 18 Nov 2012, 12:57 am, edited 1 time in total.