Aspergers Vs Bpd
I have come across in my AS forum travels, quite a few females who were apparently diagnosed as having bpd, then later as having Aspergers, which I find interesting. There are a few articles written on the subject but not nearly enough, I feel. I just found this during my browse
http://www.laurapaxton.com/
And am wondering if anyone has any insight on this... it interests me as I was, I believe, misdiagnosed with bpd almost 10 years ago, in spite of meeting not all of the criteria...and even less so now. Some seem to believe that the two can co-exist together, since AS is neurological, and Bpd is personality based and usually appears later than AS, as a result of negative experiences often.
I think women are more likely to be diagnosed as bpd instead of AS, and that this explains the supposed male-female autistic ratio. I don't know if it's really 50/50 in actuality but it's definitely not 4:1 IMO.
When a female with a violent stimming habit (like hitting or cutting herself) goes into a shrink, the shrink it probably more likely to see the stimming as manipulative as opposed to calming (this is a prejudice against women, I think we are pegged by shrinks as manipulative). So manipulative self-injury = bpd. But if a guy goes in who is hurting himself, he is probably more likely to be seen as autistic. I just don't think professionals are used to associating "autistic" with "female."
I was never diagnosed as bpd but my self-injury WAS seen as manipulative by my parents and "professionals" involved.
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!x75
The psychological community seems to go through fads where one diagnosis is all the rage and it gets stuck on anybody who even comes somewhere near the criteria. BPD was the fad around...um, 10 years back, I guess? Somewhere in that range. Lots of people got labeled BPD who weren't around that time period. In my experience all it took was self injury and you went straight to a BPD diagnosis. I too was diagnosed as BPD several times in the past even though it's pretty obvious I don't have it.
Well, I know a guy who genuinely is BPD and while he is socially charming, that's not part of the diagnostic criteria, and I don't know if it applies to others. Criteria are as follows:
1. frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment. Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5.
2. a pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation.
3. identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self.
4. impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating). Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5.
5. recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior
6. affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days).
7. chronic feelings of emptiness
8. inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights)
9. transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms
When a female with a violent stimming habit (like hitting or cutting herself) goes into a shrink, the shrink it probably more likely to see the stimming as manipulative as opposed to calming (this is a prejudice against women, I think we are pegged by shrinks as manipulative). So manipulative self-injury = bpd. But if a guy goes in who is hurting himself, he is probably more likely to be seen as autistic. I just don't think professionals are used to associating "autistic" with "female."
I was never diagnosed as bpd but my self-injury WAS seen as manipulative by my parents and "professionals" involved.
Likewise, although I have to say, people with AS are prone to stress and emotional pain at least as much as the next person, if not considerably more...and self injury can be a response to a build up of those distressing feelings. It seems insane that it is so often, even now, seen as primarilly a bpd trait when present in females.
I was diagnosed with BPD fifteen years ago, even though I didn't satisfy most of the requirements. It had to do with the meltdowns and the cutting.
Several therapists and a group facilitator did not understand how I was BPD. I didn't seem to try to manipulate people, but my clumsy attempts at trying to communicate my distress and misunderstanding were seen as manipulating thanks to the dx, and no other dx was considered.
I did not respond to the DBT that is so in vogue. It did not help me communicate any better or understand other people any better, and trying to understand what I was feeling at the moment was useless, because I had to go and think about it, which crippled any attempts at "relationship effectiveness."
My current therapist, who I've been seeing for three years, couldn't understand the BPD dx either as I wasn't responding to certain ideas, and I was taking him quite literally when he was trying to be metaphorical. One day I mentioned the amazement at my sensing sounds as colors and tastes, and how I never realized others didn't have this. He sat up so straight with this look of shock on his face, he startled me. He asked me some other questions.
He believes I have AS, and once he started treating me as such, things have gone so much more smoothly, and the focus of my therapy became accepting myself and how I am, and how to deal with people, and accept they are different from me. He is also trying to help me see how people may feel, not that they do 100% of the time, but how NTs may think.
I really agree with Graelwyn and En-Una-Isla that most AS females are dx as BPD, as well as perhaps other personality disorders.
Much metta, Jaye
Several therapists and a group facilitator did not understand how I was BPD. I didn't seem to try to manipulate people, but my clumsy attempts at trying to communicate my distress and misunderstanding were seen as manipulating thanks to the dx, and no other dx was considered.
I did not respond to the DBT that is so in vogue. It did not help me communicate any better or understand other people any better, and trying to understand what I was feeling at the moment was useless, because I had to go and think about it, which crippled any attempts at "relationship effectiveness."
My current therapist, who I've been seeing for three years, couldn't understand the BPD dx either as I wasn't responding to certain ideas, and I was taking him quite literally when he was trying to be metaphorical. One day I mentioned the amazement at my sensing sounds as colors and tastes, and how I never realized others didn't have this. He sat up so straight with this look of shock on his face, he startled me. He asked me some other questions.
He believes I have AS, and once he started treating me as such, things have gone so much more smoothly, and the focus of my therapy became accepting myself and how I am, and how to deal with people, and accept they are different from me. He is also trying to help me see how people may feel, not that they do 100% of the time, but how NTs may think.
I really agree with Graelwyn and En-Una-Isla that most AS females are dx as BPD, as well as perhaps other personality disorders.
Much metta, Jaye
Aha, Dbt. I had a go at that myself last year, having got frustrated with my tendency to get obsessed with people, as opposed to things, and to react with distress when their behaviour was unpredictable. I assumed it was the old bpd, and went along to group and individual therapy. Well, sitting in that group...it was like I was surrounded by aliens, literally! I felt as if I was going insane surrounded by these females. I engaged...but it took a long time for me to talk. When I did, I was precise and intellectual. I could not understand the tasks set as homework, they seemed boring and pointless, and so I rarely did them and as a result got into trouble with my therapist...now, I am a 31 year old woman and I did not appreciate being told off like some willful child. Anyway, I finally got round to filling in some homework, but she decided to ignore my efforts totally and tell me we had better go back to the basics of my aims being there. My response to this was a meltdown. I was furious. I was defiant and I couldn't understand why, when I had done as she asked me, she was now ignoring it as if it counted for nothing...and making me go over my reasons for being there. I walked out and slammed the door...and had a nice letter soon after talking about my 'bad', 'aggressive' behaviour. I totally ignored it and never went back.
Like you, the main reasons for my dx were meltdowns and the resulting self harm from this. I had a very controlling mother who was also manipulative and had spent my entire childhood putting me down and trying to mold me to her idea of who I should be. I actually started to improve when I left her. I wish I had been Dx'd as AS then as in truth, there is such a stigma attached to the bpd label.
I was diagnosed with BPD four years ago. It was only ever a rough fit and did not explain my social difficulties and communication problems or my obsessive interests and sensory issues. AS fits perfectly and explains everything. Can't get diagnosed though as doctors here are ignorant.
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*it's been lovely but I have to scream now*
Couldn't you register with a new doctor and find one who will refer you to the CLASS clinic in Cambridge where they are doing free adult assessments? Or are there other things getting in the way?
Couldn't you register with a new doctor and find one who will refer you to the CLASS clinic in Cambridge where they are doing free adult assessments? Or are there other things getting in the way?
I've investigated the CLASS clinic and they require you to have a person with you who has known you since before the age of 5. I don't have such a person. I can't approach my parents because they won't understand and I have no siblings or even childhood friends.
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*it's been lovely but I have to scream now*
gloomywtregret
Raven
Joined: 8 Mar 2006
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 118
Location: Wherever I don't want to be
Couldn't you register with a new doctor and find one who will refer you to the CLASS clinic in Cambridge where they are doing free adult assessments? Or are there other things getting in the way?
I've investigated the CLASS clinic and they require you to have a person with you who has known you since before the age of 5. I don't have such a person. I can't approach my parents because they won't understand and I have no siblings or even childhood friends.
Ah yes. I think that rule to the dx is stupid, to be honest as it means those whose parents would have issues with the AS possibility are excluded as are those are on bad terms with their parents, or whose parents are deceased. I believe that is unfair...and besides, surely, considering it isn't a condition that can simply magically appear in adulthood, if it is there as an adult, it would have been there as a child?
I am ok as my father is sort of okay with coming with me, although he refutes the usefulness and validity. He does not believe in labels, but rather in just getting on with it regardless. My mother wouldn't even consider I might have AS. But I will probably bring up the assessment with her when it is imminent and tell her dad will take me if she wont, lol. In the end, she was with me a lot more as a child, but she is also biased and is tending to only see this naughty, cute little girl who had some problems at school etc etc.
Are there no specialists local to you? I am also being referred to a local team as well as to Cambridge...