People misunderstanding what you are saying

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I would like to know whether people think what I said is highly stupid because I am little muddled at the moment. I was in a seminar at my university in which I am taking a course called the History of Ideas, which is essentially History but with a little bit more philosophy involved, and we were discussing biblical interpretation. The lecturer asked a Muslim girl whether the bible was similar to the Koran in so far that translation into English is seen as a negative thing. She stated that the Koran was better understood in Arabic and that you could read it as an English translation; although, you would be misunderstanding some of it. I then said that it may be true that Arabic is far better than English when understanding the ideas in the Koran, however if Mohammed and his followers wished the whole world to become Muslim (I'm not saying they wanted to enforce it against people's wills) and they believed that Arabic was superior in grasping the concepts presented in the Koran, then it can only be people that are able to understand Arabic that can get a real insight into the word of God. I am not saying that one cannot grasp the basics of the Koran through an English translation but if it is considered the original language through which god manifested and misunderstandings are born through English translation, surely that thus means that one cannot grasp the word of god and become as good a Muslim when compared to an individual who is born into an Arabic countries. I then said that it could be considered a problem with the language or a problem with the faith depending on which way you look at it. Therefore, either Arabic is exactly the same as English when it is translated and thus one cannot get an insight into the word of god and the religion attains it's objective that-'God is for all.' However if that is not the case and the language loses its meaning when in English and someone does not have time or effort to learn Arabic or suffers from a mental form of 'disability' that means they cannot do, then that is fair enough but it means that 'god is not for all' since god manifested his existed through the Koran in Arabic. Thus the Muslim faith cannot spread its influence to every person. Anyway, when I said this a girl said 'I cannot believe you said Muslims wanted world domination, that's so racist'. Then another girl said I was an Islamaphobe(I think that is what it is called and how it is spelt) and that Arabic was the only language they could put it in and that that was a fact of life and that I should just deal with it. Anyway so I was called those names and then everyone ignored me throughout the seminar. I feel like I made a f****** stupid point that logically didn't make any sense and I also offended people. Sorry to spam the discussions page with this but it's made me feel like s***. I feel like a worthless moron who should not be taking such a course if i cannot have a logical debate.

Here is my understanding of the difference between the Bible and Koran: Christians and Jews believe the Bible was divinely inspired. Muslims believe their Koran is not only divinely inspired, but dictated straight from Allah's mouth to Mohammad's ear--a claim not made for the Bible. Hence, the Koran is not to be changed in any way, as it is straight from Allah, who allegedly dictated it in Arabic. Though serious Bible scholars want to read the Bible in its original languages, I've never heard anybody suggest that it must be read in its original languages the way Muslims insist the Koran must be read in Arabic.

As far as it being "racist" to think that Islam is bent on world domination, it proves that a "racist" is anybody who is winning an argument against a liberal. It is certainly the case that Christianity has universalist pretensions, but only as a faith. Islam is a total package insofar as the Koran prescribes not only the faith but how society and government should be set up; it is called Sharia law. It is also the case that, unlike Christianity, Islam militarily conquered as much of the world as it could. Again, this girl characterized Muslim domination as "racist" simply because she had no other argument.

Your logical argument was complex and (although technically sound) it went off point, in my opinion. It might have been better to point out that the Bible has similar problems when being translated from Hebrew as some words/phrases have multiple or unclear meanings. By proceeding down the logical path you were on, you essentially made a logical argument invalidating Islam and only Islam.

You are not stupid and your argument was logical. However, given the situation, you should not have carried it out to it's conclusion. Take care when criticizing religions in any situation, people get very emotional about them. The responses you got were emotional, not logical arguments.

Be aware though, counter-intuitive as it may seem, logic does not always lead to the correct answer in philosophy. Often there is an equally valid counter argument.

Several points: Univeralism is actually a Western value. Consequently, most religions, including Judaism, do not actively proselytyze. What made Islam a universal religion was its contact with Western values, particularly Christianity, which flourished in the Arabic peninsula during the time of Mohammad. When Islam speaks of "people of the book", it is referring to Judaism and Christianity. Theologically, Islam resembles a simplified, deracinated Judaism, and in terms of its universality copies Christianity and Greek philosophy.

Having said this, much of Islam is particularistic. A good Muslim must pray five times a day and bow towards Mecca when he does so. The good Muslim is also expected to make a pilgrimage to Mecca at least once in his lifetime. It is also the case that it would not be possible to observe Ramadan properly in the far northern reaches where during certain seasons there is almost no light, and at other times no darkness. It also bans the taking of wine and beer, which at one time were necessary for good nutrition in the more northern climates of Europe. Not only did both provide carbs and vitamins, but the alcohol purified the water content, making it potable.

This is just my opinion, but Islam is a poorly conceived fraud based upon intimidation and fear rather than the agape of Christianity (even if it is frequently only an ideal) or the morality of Judaism; Islam is about military conquest--or jihad. Having said this, if the people in the Mideast wish to be Muslims, that is their business, and that is where this religion belongs.

It used to bother me when people would call me a "racist" or similarly childish insults. Now, there are two ways I handle these liberals who refuse to grow up:

1. I remind them that name-calling is the most graceless way possible of admitting you just lost the argument; it means you don't have anything intelligent to say.

2. Say something to the effect of: Whatever else racism is these days, it is clearly something immoral or disreputable. How do you figure stating facts and telling the truth is either?

Whichever course you decide to take, I would strongly advise you to seize and keep the moral high ground by not getting huffy or insulting yourself, but instead going on a polite and factual offensive. Since the name-callers are operating from a moral (i.e., Political Correctness) rather than logical mode, it blows their minds. Done correctly, you will reduce your opponents to baffled silence.

Good luck.

"It used to bother me when people would call me a "racist" or similarly childish insults. Now, there are two ways I handle these liberals who refuse to grow up:"
I just want to point out, name calling is not purely the province of "liberals."

Having said that, I'll sign out of this thread.

Back to what the OP said in the OP.


I think its more how you said it -then what you said.
So dont beat up on yourself too much.

Basically you were saying "do you have to speak Arabic to worship God in Islam?". Or "does God descriminate against non arabic speakers?".

The response would be that "God ALWAYS descriminates linguistically".

All the major world religions were written in some scriptural form. And all have problems with being translated into the languages of other times and of other places:Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, all have that same issue.



So if you want potential converts to get "the good news" that lies within the scripture of your particular holy book there is always going to be language problems with subtleties of speech.

And even the modern inhabitants of Arab speaking countries speak an Arabic that isnt quite the same as the seventh centurey 'classical Arabic' that the Koran is written in. In fact there is more than one modern dialect of Arabic by region.

So even if you were born in Saudi Arabia ( in Mohammed's hometown) your native tongue is perhaps only slightly more like the Arabic of the Koran than modern Italian is like ancient Latin. So even modern Arabs are slightly handicapped in understanding the nuances of the original Koran, but so are Americans linguistically hamstrung in understanding the Bible. There are scores of rival English language translations of the Bible, and more are created all of the time.

And it was only in my lifetime that the Pope even allowed God to speak English in Catholic masses.

Saying that "Muslims have a monopoly on God because Arabic is their mother tongue" makes no sense since only a minority of muslims have any dialect of Arabic as their 'mother tongue". And none today have the classical Arabic of the Koran as their mother tongue.

In fact most Muslims live in eastern Asia (Bangladesh, Indonesia, Malaysia, and the southern Philipines) thousands of miles from Arabia.

I love that you guys are debating religion and scripture using logic and reason. It genuinely makes me giggle and if this wasn't an Aspie forum I may have just written you off as a pack of unintelligent fools. But I know from personal experience how difficult it is to (not comprehend, for that cannot be done) accept the sheer illogicality and chaos that rules the world of normal people.

Fact: you cannot say stuff such as

Since you are obviously as wise and virtuous as we are stupid and evil, I'm surprised you deigned to acknowledge our existence.

Could you clarify what you meant by this statement, I'm not quite sure what it means?