What do NTs hate so much about us?

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Hi everyone,

I'm a very high-functioning aspie.
(AQ = 27, aspire: 119/200, NT: 109/200.)

It seems that people love to hate us aspies. I don't do anything to hurt people, and I've gotten the social rules down pretty ok due to rigorous therapy and training. Some people really adore me. But most people just seem to can't stand spending time with me and avoid it at all costs.

It's odd because this happens even on my best behaviour. I never talk about my special interest and can usually determine when people lose interest in what I have to say (so I stop). I never stim in public. But time and time again, people just love to hate me.

What is it that NTs really can't stand about aspies? Why is it do they make it a point to exclude us from their social groups? We don't hurt people (or at least I don't) and I don't even feel that different. Yet time and time again the only time I get invited to outings is when the whole class is invited by default (eg message boards, which is happening less and less). This is getting me to feel that I'm doing something to make people hate me but I don't know what it is. Sometimes i see facebook pics of what seems like most of the class hanging out without me, making me feel like they don't post invites on the discussion board anymore simply to leave me out.

I guess I'm less spontaneous and a bit socially awkward, but I don't feel like I'm doing anything that would warrant people disliking me. I like to hang out and feel part of a group, but it seems that every group I am placed in (class, camp, etc.) seems to eventually come up with an unsaid code "leave out aspieMD at all costs!! ! Inviting here would result in your ostracism!" Why would anyone care so much about a little social awkwardness to make it a point to not include me? Do NTs take advantage of little differences to assert their rank by not inviting me along - thereby bonding more with the rest of the group? I don't understand, I'd like an NT's perspective on why NTs find it so important to leave me out and why they would genuinely dislike me or avoid having me around the group (despite being nice one-on-one), given that I don't hurt people or do anything that I would consider a dealbreaker or a big deal? And it's odd how they don't even say anything about it, but that leaving me out seems to be almost natural, a given, something that is known without being discussed (my theory is that it represents the amalgamation of social cues shared between them). Aspies can comment too on their experiences.... I feel so alone!

Also, another theory: Maybe aspies bond in different ways than NTs, making it harder for aspies to bond with NTs, meanwhile my NT classmates are bonding with each other. Aspies socialize to share ideas, NTs to share emotions/make each other feel higher-ranked, so maybe NTs find aspies mundane and boring? I really don't get it!! !

I didn't know that NT's hated us so much.

I know just what you mean - and wish I knew why. I have a gist though. I am a mixture of analytically minded plus creative, which may be indicative of many/most Aspies, although our talents/interests are quite varied. And I am intensely focused. I know that many/most NTs have a 'broad stroke' approach and tend to rely on their impressions, which may well be irrespective of the truth. I believe this may be related to what motivates them: status and their perceived advantages.

I have experience with animals and a special rapport with them too. From my observations, Aspies tend to relate socially more like animals rather than on human stereotypical standards. I watch dogs play at the park nearby and their prevailing attitude with each other seems to be (not meaning to anthropomorphise here) "lets play." That is, lets have a shared enjoyable experience, pursuing our interests. "Look, there's a tall tree in the shade - lets go there!" Oblivious that their playmate may be a coveted groomed French poodle, a 3 legged mutt or a racing greyhound. Conversely, I believe NTs tend to choose their friends based on preconceived notions and impressions - a societal order.

I know some people do like me (& some surely don't, but that's another story). Those who like me tend to have common traits: very much NT (even hyper-NT) in that they are really empathetic and warm (natural 'people persons') who are confident and accessible. This includes too those who may be considerably older than myself or are may be outside the societal group.

I know that NTs can be cruel and seemingly they lack our introspection to even care enough to know how badly they can hurt. Ironic in that NTs tout they value honesty, integrity, intelligence......etc. You know the list. However, in practice, this is certainly not the case. Instead, they tend to choose whom is most personable to them.

Well obviously not all NTs hate us but I would say what might make us Aspies less appealing towards NTs is mainly the social aspect because to me alot of NTs are very social with each other and some may find deviations in that area uncomfortable (my first date in 8 yrs went terribly because of that) but some NTs are tolerable of our social issues and do befriend Aspies/Auties. As for your problem with your fellow students excluding you leave them they're not worth it and focus on the people who enjoy you're company like the old saying: Quality over quantity any time.

I can't offer any good advice or insight, but I can say that I feel exactly the same as you do. You are not alone. I didn't have any therapy and my awkwardness may be more obvious than yours.

Their excluding you may look natural to you, but I'm sure that unfortunately they discuss (badmouth) you a lot behind your back. Even if your intentions are good, they must be misinterpreting you a lot. I believe it's mostly their misunderstanding (based on your different mannerism etc that you don't notice yourself) that causes them to dislike you. I know it's very frustrating and sad and you don't deserve it. I've been experiencing that all my life. Even now. But our inability to act fully normally, I think, is bad enough for them to exclude us for the sake of that. Human beings are social beings and they always try to find excuses to put weak (different) ones down so that they themselves can be at a higher social position. Our being (slightly) different without an obvious strength is enough for them to put us down and exclude us. So I guess it might have something to do with their survival instinct.

I don't know what I have written here makes sense to you, but that's what came up to my mind.

We for sure bond in different ways. As you said, our friendships are about exchanging of information, and don't really focus on the person (Rule #2: http://www.jamesmw.com/sixrules.htm )

However, as for them hatibg you, I think it's more that they don't think you'd like to come. Social people are social because they do the seeking out of conpany. NTs can read us as not wanting to be social, too, so they won't bother. Also, our awkward makes them feel awkward. I notice that as I've got confidence I've gotten friends. Even though I'm like holycrap odd, me being comfortable allows them to be comfortable. Though, I only got comfy when I stopped wanting/needing to socialize; it took all the pressure off because losing or gaining a friend didn't matter.

People who are the stereotypical popular generally ignore themselves; they feel completely bad about themselves on the inside. Someone who can't face their own awkward would never be able to face someone elses.

It's cliché, but, you really do got to loce yourself before anything. Theminute you stop needing others is the minute pressure gets taken off. I'm not saying don't need others, I'm saying don't be desperately dependent on their attention. They, especially NTs can pick up on that.

So, really, it seems to me that it's most about people being confortable with themselves. If they aren't, then change and difference can make them uncomfortable.

Apologies for the double-post, but your post made me think......you're right - I don't think they really hate us! Or at I hope not.

But there can be an aversion and I do wonder. There's a syndrome that is diagnostically regarded as the antithesis of Aspergers: William's syndrome. They are our opposite. While Aspies tend to be logical, socially rigid, etc. (you know it already), William's are social butterflies - uniformly they have low IQs and other characteristics. Anyhow, not to get caught up in the criteria: it is known that William's individuals seem to have a nearly visceral dislike of Aspies. I understand that William's individuals find us "creepy," like snakes or spiders. Maybe they do have a sense that we are not one of them, which can be frightening, I guess.

Then there's the Uncanny Valley: Aspies can seem fakey or unreal (but we're not), which is inherently off-putting. I was teased (a lot) about being 'a robot.'

Wow! I never considered the Uncanny Valley thing ö__ö but that makes perfect sense!

It is incorrect and paranoid to make sweeping statements that "NTs hate us so much". Hate is a very strong word. Sure a few NTs will hate us, some will dislike or distrust us, but I think the majority on NTs are indifferent either way.

I think the biggest source of perceived "conflict" is that most NTs are social animals with social skills but most of us lack social skills and/or aren't interested in socialising anyway. That can make us look anti-social and maybe gives some NTs a certain mistrust of us.

Can't say as I care really. I guess most of these social problems are prevalent with high school kids. Kids can be quite nasty to each other and especially towards anyone who doesn't fit in to their cliques.

My best friend is NT and she helps me tremendously.

AspieMD - I think it is just xenophobia, the irrational fear of those that are different. Which is also seen in some degree in your opinion that all NTs behave the same. Obviously I can not know your life experiences, but I feel it is better to view this as the are some nice people, indifferent people and nasty people whether NT or ND.
Hate is too strong a word for what you describe here, bullying and bigotry are hateful, I do understand that being excluded is upsetting. I'm afraid you can not change other people but you can find a better way to deal with this, as above. ^

It's hard in high school because it's a beginning point of self doscovery. If you can't find company with yourself, you may seek it in other people. I used to be so fretful over not being cool, and as I've come to enjoy my company, I am largely indifferent on people; though needing some human interaction here and there.

It's xenophobia, or the Uncanny Valley phenomenon.

Or, if you want to be paranoid and cynical, the reason early Homo sapiens hunted Homo neanderthalensis to extinction.

We are different-- and at the same time, similar enough for the difference to be distressing.

It's not that they hate you. They don't; most of them don't think that far. I have had NT's that saw the difference and hated me-- when they hate you, they do not merely leave you out. They hunt you and persecute you, do everything in their power to eliminate you. Kids throwing rocks-- and it's not limited to kids. I've had 60+ year-old women file false police reports against me simply because I showed up at the nursing home with a slice of homemade squash pie-- THAT, my dear, is HATE.

They are merely uncomfortable with you. And that's enough to keep you out of the club.

No matter how many social skills you learn, they are still learned, not easy and innate. You are, perhaps, slow to respond. Something in your eyes or body language still looks a little agitated. You are, perhaps, not quite spontaneous.

You cannot get rid of those things, and you will not be included by the masses.

So stop worrying about it.

Hang with the people who don't have a problem with you-- you will find a few, and those are the good ones. People you can relax with, instead of analyzing what you might be doing wrong.

Concentrate on your studies, and let your human decency shine. You will, I imagine, be a fine doctor-- one of the kind I would like to find for my father-in-law, send my husband to, or take my kids to.

Stop trying to be, and stop getting upset about it. The goal of rigorous therapy for Aspie/HFA kids is to make them NT-- We can never be NT. Blending in, at a casual glance, is a survival skill-- but TO BE NT is a mistaken goal.

I can imagine it is stressful if people want to "fit in" or look "cool". Those things never interested me at that age (or any other age); I always did my own thing and couldn't care less about having friends. I was the class "swot" always with my head in books and indifferent to the social interactions going on around me.

I was never cool I don't think but I was kind of popular because I was naughty.

Did you talk about it with them?

Ok talking isn't simple, but writing is, you wrote a very nice openning post so you can write your friends/the NTs about your problem!

Actually you have already wrote, just link them to here and let them read

Good luck