Psychedelics, Non-psychoactive Cannabinoids, and Autism
Hi everyone,
it has been a long time since I have posted here, but after a long recreational research binge (one of my special interests is learning new things), I came across some rather interesting information on how psychedelics interact with the brain. It left me wondering about the efficacy of using psychedelics to help combat the anxiety, depression, and "stinkin' thinkin" that seems to be fairly common in the autistic/aspie community...
I was wondering if any of you had any experience with psychedelics. How did they affect you? Was there a noticeable difference in severity of autistic mannerisms between pre- and post- usage? Was there a difference in depression, anxiety, or "stinkin' thinkin"?
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jT5dZDnJ6J4[/youtube]
In this study, the doses given were quite high, far beyond what is considered recreational, but the results claimed are nothing short of astounding.
In addition to this, I have become increasingly curious about Cannabidiol, a "non-psychoactive" cannabinoid found in marijuana. (Note: most "medicinal" marijuana strains have very little, if any, CBD) Again, I found some research that seems to suggest that the symptoms of autism could be lessened with its use, (http://www.projectcbd.org/home-2/autism/) but it left me with questions about viability as a treatment. Do any of you have any experience using CBD rich compounds? Again, how did they affect you? Was there any noticeable difference?
I would greatly appreciate your feedback regarding this topic.
(preemptive disclaimer: This thread and its contents are purely speculative and anecdotal in nature and should not be interpreted as an excuse to use any drug. All drugs, including marijuana, have potential risks associated with their use.)
_________________
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind."
-Dr. Seuss
Cant see the video on my computer.
Basically you're asking folks who have recreationally used acid, and/or pot, how it has effected them as autistics.
Pot tends to make folks mildly more 'autistic'- ie more into their own thoughts, and less extravert while high. But its not debilitating either on or off the high.
And thats how it effects me, and probably most ppl in the HFA/aspie category- the same way it effects nts.
So for the high end of the spectrum getting high is neither better nor worse than it is for NTs.
you're implying that THC (the active ingredient in pot) "dramatically" helps autistics. That would be counter intuitive to me because from my experience it makes you temporarily a little more autistic. But who knows? Maybe LFA's go the opposite way when on THC. Maybe its like speed- amphetimines keep adults awake- but cause hyperactive children to calm down. Go figure.
Basically you're asking folks who have recreationally used acid, and/or pot, how it has effected them as autistics.
Pot tends to make folks mildly more 'autistic'- ie more into their own thoughts, and less extravert while high. But its not debilitating either on or off the high.
And thats how it effects me, and probably most ppl in the HFA/aspie category- the same way it effects nts.
So for the high end of the spectrum getting high is neither better nor worse than it is for NTs.
you're implying that THC (the active ingredient in pot) "dramatically" helps autistics. That would be counter intuitive to me because from my experience it makes you temporarily a little more autistic. But who knows? Maybe LFA's go the opposite way when on THC. Maybe its like speed- amphetimines keep adults awake- but cause hyperactive children to calm down. Go figure.
I find its all in how much you take, if I smoke a small amount I become much more social
Basically you're asking folks who have recreationally used acid, and/or pot, how it has effected them as autistics.
Pot tends to make folks mildly more 'autistic'- ie more into their own thoughts, and less extravert while high. But its not debilitating either on or off the high.
And thats how it effects me, and probably most ppl in the HFA/aspie category- the same way it effects nts.
So for the high end of the spectrum getting high is neither better nor worse than it is for NTs.
you're implying that THC (the active ingredient in pot) "dramatically" helps autistics. That would be counter intuitive to me because from my experience it makes you temporarily a little more autistic. But who knows? Maybe LFA's go the opposite way when on THC. Maybe its like speed- amphetimines keep adults awake- but cause hyperactive children to calm down. Go figure.
no, not THC... CBD. Cannabidiol has (apparently) been found to act as an antipsychotic and modulates (reduces?) the psychoactive effects attached to THC highs. I am well aware that THC is rather the opposite effect from the ones I described here, often making its partakers somewhat 'more autistic' than usual. I am interested in the NON-THC cannabinoids for this very reason. If THC creates a higher level of perceived autism, and CBD modulates the effects of THC, what does it do on its own to someone that is already autistic?
_________________
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind."
-Dr. Seuss
To (mis?)quote the old cliche - "acid gets you out of the prison and leaves you in the prison yard"
Acid certainly did that for me.
It's helped to condition my perception of "reality", and therefore has probably contributed to my depression.
If I were to go back to my acid years, would I do it again? Yes. It's the fundamental Matrix question: which pill would you take...
Not sure how aspie related this is - I assume it applies to all of us who are "too" sensitive, "too" intelligent, "too" questioning.
(This is a somewhat lengthy post, but I hope it will be interesting to those who are curious about some of the reasons why some people make rational decisions to use drugs, and even to adopt drug use as one aspect of their lifestyle, particularly when that person is on the autistic spectrum)
I approach all drug use in an experimental frame of mind, with regard to the drug's potential for use as a personal development tool.
Long before diagnosis, I vaguely recognised that I had certain social and perceptual problems when compared to other people, and so (while I didn't mind being regarded as a little 'odd', and indeed actively encouraged such perceptions on occasion) I determined to investigate these on my own, and perception-altering drugs seemed the ideal route through which to mount such an exploration.
This started out (as most drug use does) with smoking cannabis, at the age of about 18 (when I was just embarking on my adult social life).
It was common in my social circle and so I had easy access to it and frequently used it in social settings, the most enjoyable of which were the long evenings (sometimes extending to the next morning, depending on how energetic participants were). spent hanging around someone's house, with wine on the go and music in the background, chatting about life in general.
Such prolonged chats occasionally got quite philosophical (of course, with the benefit of hindsight, a lot of it was very immature, and sometimes complete nonsense, but it was useful experience in the art of abstract discussion) and during them people often felt comfortable with revealing some of the more private aspects of their personalities, which was useful to me in the sense that it enhanced my perspective on other people's 'depths' in general (even though they might not be readily observable) and made me more prepared to engage with people in general on a deeper level when the situation arose.
(I hasten to add that I didn't approach such experiences on a purely calculating level -- I also enjoyed them for what they were on a personal basis and sometimes developed personal friendships out of them (indeed I met my first proper partner this way)).
I found that cannabis use tended overall to make me more relaxed and empathic in my interpersonal skills, so I continued to use it off and on over the next decade or so, until for some reason I started having adverse reactions to it, meaning that my experience of being 'stoned' developed an overwhelming tendency toward the negative -- paranoia, strongly delusional thinking, anxiety, panic attacks, etc -- and so ultimately I stopped using it, because it was too much risk. (I wonder now whether that change in my reaction was due to some change in the psychoactive qualities of the cannabis that was available at the time (this was during the period of scare-stories about 'super skunk' in the British media), but I suppose I'll never know).
It served its purpose in helping me to develop as a person, and I'm glad I did it.
During this time, I also went through an acid phase while I was an undergraduate. I had always been highly curious about LSD (not least because I had read about its experimental application in psychiatry and psychoanalysis, but also because it sounded very 'out there' (and fun)). With a suitably acid-experienced housemate as 'guide' during my trips, I found LSD use very enjoyable for the altered perceptions it created, often involving sudden and profound insights into the workings of my mind and social interaction in general.
Again, this was generally explored in a social way (groups of trippers sitting around and chatting) and conversation under its influence provided further understanding of how I perceived and reacted to other people. One particularly memorable occasion involved a long session of music-accompanied chat, during which one of the trippers suddenly expressed some severely racist viewpoints: No-one reacted with horror or outrage, or became in any way hostile to that person, but the conversation continued smoothly and the opinions were taken up as a general area of discussion, with most people simply being curious about why the speaker held such extreme positions, and after it was explored at length the original speaker expressed his sincere puzzlement at not being able to justify his stance, said it now seemed a bit ridiculous to him, and said he would try to 'get over it' -- this (to my mind) was a very good example of how LSD use could have a directly-appreciable therapeutic value.
This LSD phase was highly useful in my personal development: Not only did it provide me with direct experience of exactly how much 'personality' was a social construct and could therefore be altered by other people's reactions to it, and how fluid and changeable personal perceptions could be (which I put into practice during my 'sober' life by adopting a practice of interrogating my initial perception of something or someone, which was highly suited to an occasional introvert like me), it enhanced my personal appreciation of the sheer artificiality of some social structures (particularly the law and the capitalist system), and my understanding of how unconscious processes could occasionally be observed in action (if you paid attention to your own chains of thought), one practical aspect of which was that I began to counter my tendency to be unable to maintain conversations by engaging in techniques broadly-describable as 'free association'.
It also led me to perceive and engage with the strongly homosexual side of my personality, which became obvious to me under the influence of LSD, and which I had only previously experienced fleetingly (frequent but unpursued homoerotic 'crushes' for example) and had never begun to explore, and this had longterm effects (lasting to the present) on how I subsequently lived my life (I didn't experience any sense of shame or guilt over this, and 'came out' to family and friends as soon as I realised it was true, even though I had not at that stage had a single homosexual encounter).
I stopped using LSD after I had a seriously bad trip, caused by a stupidly ill-judged decision (it was a friend's idea, and I naively went along with it) to 'come out' as bisexual while tripping with a group of friends. It never got as far as that stage because the anxiety and paranoia I experienced reduced me to mute terror, while everyone else carried on in complete ignorance. Those who have never been through a 'bad trip' can have no idea of the hellish dimensions it can assume, and I still remember the experience shudderingly. I haven't touched LSD since.
My drug use dried up for a bit after I had abandoned cannabis and LSD, although I tried amphetamines (useful if you want to be highly interactive in a social situation, but which I judged to have little or no use as a personal development tool) and cocaine (which is highly enjoyable, but leads to very shallow personal perceptions during use, and tends to make users into boring self-obsessed a***holes, and is therefore similarly of limited use).
My discovery of ecstasy in my 30s was a bombshell. Since I don't dance, and because it was generally regarded as a 'clubbing drug', I had never bothered with it. Now I had access to a drug that made me highly-empathic while simultaneously heightening the pleasurableness of personal interaction. Although I know it was illusory, I frequently experienced social situations as being permeated by a sort of 'force field', within which I felt greatly aware of the invisible social threads that connect people and the vast potential for social encounters within that 'force field', and I assume (from discussion with NT ecstasy users) that this is somewhat akin to the perception of social situations by sober NT people -- i.e., they appreciate on an instinctual level the quality and character (you might almost say the 'spirit') of a social context, something which is normally not a perception available to a person with ASD, who tends to regard such situations as chaotic but tolerable (at best) or as overwhelming and distressing (at worst).
Since ecstasy use greatly enhanced the optimism with which I approach personal interaction, and directly-increased my perception of (and spontaneous reactions to) the emotional states of others (not least because of heightened responsiveness to the unspoken cues of others, such as fleetingly-observable types of body language or briefly-passing facial expressions that reflect unspoken thought-processes) -- this being learned while under the influence of ecstasy and that learning then being applied during sober experience in day-to-day life -- I regard ecstasy as being the most useful drug I can imagine as a personal development tool for people with ASDs and would strongly recommend its use by others in such situations.
I realise that this is perhaps not a very responsible attitude to hold toward the use of class-A drugs, but it is my sincerely-held opinion.
I continue to use ecstasy on occasion for reasons that now tend toward the pursuit of pleasure for its own sake, and cannot foresee a time when I might discontinue use (although this could obviously happen at some unforeseeable point in the future, perhaps because I will simply 'grow out of it').
TLDR: Drugs can be both fun and useful for an ASD person, and can provide portals (not available to the drug-naïve) to the greater understanding of one's social self, and how one's personal interactions may be modified or adapted, bypassing the often strictly-logical approaches taken by people with ASDs toward their own social development.
LSD can allow a person to examine their mental processes and lead to deeper understanding of themselves; this can be particularly valuable for autistics, who can sometimes lack insight into their own patterns. MDMA, as mentioned by the above poster, is an incredible tool for emotional exploration and uninhibited personal expression, and can aid people on the spectrum in learning to do those things. I look forward to the day when legal, medical use of psychedelics can lead to scientific study of their effects (and I support efforts like those of http://www.maps.org/). It is hard to recommend self-experimentation to people on the spectrum, though, some of whom are "rules aspies" who won't do anything that is illegal, and many of whom lack the social skills to arrange black market deals for themselves.
I am also interested in the effects of cannabidiol, since I find something lacking in the currently fashionable high THC strains--there was higher percentage of cannabidiol in the hybrid strains people were smoking when I first started. Hopefully someone will isolate it and make it available soon.
Your experiences are very interesting! Ecstasy stimulate release of "the bonding hormone" Oxytocin so maybe that could be related to the improved social understanding.
wikipedia:
Autism: Oxytocin may play a role in autism and may be an effective treatment for autism's repetitive and affiliative behaviors. [32] Oxytocin treatments also resulted in an increased retention of affective speech in adults with autism. [33]
Two related studies in adults, in 2003 and 2007, found oxytocin decreased repetitive behaviors and improved interpretation of emotions. More recently, intranasal administration of oxytocin was found to increase emotion recognition in children as young as 12 who are diagnosed with autism spectrum disorders. [34]
Oxytocin has also been implicated in the etiology of autism, with one report suggesting autism is correlated with genomic deletion of the gene containing the oxytocin receptor gene (OXTR). Studies involving Caucasian and Finnish samples and Chinese Han families provide support for the relationship of OXTR with autism. [33][35] Autism may also be associated with an aberrant methylation of OXTR. [33] After treatment with inhaled oxytocin, autistic patients exhibit more appropriate social behavior. [36] While this research suggests some promise, further clinical trials of oxytocin are required to demonstrate potential benefit and side effects in the treatment of autism. As such, researchers do not recommend use of oxytocin as a treatment for autism outside of clinical trials. [citation needed]
The rule Aspies can settle for a nasal spray
When you talk about mind-altering drugs and autism, you have to differentiate between anti-anxiety effects which reduce social anxiety and self-consciousness. Quite often, people will mistake an alleviation of social anxiety for a betterment of social skills.
And even if they are helpful, there are always drawbacks. To some extent, these substances impair your thinking ability in one respect or another. Antipsychotics may make you tired; Ritalin might make you jittery. Recreational drugs are no different, and some are so dangerous that they have no medical applications.
There's the legality issue, too. You don't want to get arrested, especially as an autistic person. You risk being mistreated in police custody, and if you died while police held you down or were shot by a police officer, you wouldn't be the first. If you think an illegal drug would be helpful, it is better to research its mechanism of action and find a legal substance--or even an activity, like meditation or exercise--which might substitute.
Ecstasy, for example, can be mimicked in a less extreme sense by holding a pet, or holding a baby (especially if you are biochemically female). Some effects of marijuana can be duplicated by meditation. Exercise releases natural opioids. If you need alcohol to relax in social situations, get treatment for social anxiety instead of getting drunk. And however much they badmouth Ritalin, it'll help you focus in a much safer way than nicotine can.
Don't risk contaminated drugs and legal problems if you don't have to.
_________________
Reports from a Resident Alien:
http://chaoticidealism.livejournal.com
Autism Memorial:
http://autism-memorial.livejournal.com
I already have a high level of self-awareness which contributes to anxiety and depression, although Ritalin did make me feel like I was constantly on speed. I would only take 25mg and have these massive manic weeks. On the lower doses I was more social, even had more control of my emotions and my focus was just amazing. I miss those days.
From what I've heard LSD is the closest thing to making us feel normal, beside mood stabilizers.
I'm just going to hit 'submit' now because I just left this page up for about 3 hours.
_________________
My band photography blog - http://lostthroughthelens.wordpress.com/
My personal blog - http://helptheywantmetosocialise.wordpress.com/
From what I've heard LSD is the closest thing to making us feel normal, beside mood stabilizers.
.
If by "normal" you mean sensing multi dimensional objects and having the feeling like you're being sucked into an alternate universe or reality, then yeah, "normal" it is!
Which is why it's highly-desirable in such instances to develop a personal relationship with a dealer (even something as simple as having his number stored on your phone), so that you can meet in a pre-arranged location, thereby minimising the chance of being observed, and then not taking the drug until you are safely in good and trusted company, ideally in a private residence (but if you're going to a rave, you can safely assume that you probably won't get stopped or searched, and the police (if they are even there at all) will purely be interested in preserving public order).
By being careful, you can reduce your risk of encountering police officers to nearly zero (extreme bad luck notwithstanding).
In 25 years of drug use, I have never been stopped or searched by a police officer (touch wood!).
With respect, this is like saying you needn't listen to a Beethoven symphony because you could always listen to birdsong instead. It's characteristic of MDMA-naïve remarks.
Who the FWUCK told you that?
Presumably, someone whose normal state is psychosis.
If you expect to achieve a state of normal/NT perception through LSD use, for God's sake don't pursue this idea.
Who the FWUCK told you that?
Presumably, someone whose normal state is psychosis.
If you expect to achieve a state of normal/NT perception through LSD use, for God's sake don't pursue this idea.
I have found that low doses of lsd make my thoughts much clearer and I can socialize without anxiety
the best way I can describe it is, its like life is a giant control panel and when you take lsd its like taking the cover off the panel and you can see where they wires go
Oh, that's interesting -- and I'm certainly not in any position to gainsay your personal experience.
I had assumed that previous posts were referring to LSD ingestion within the usual dose-range associated with recreational use.
I've never experienced low-dose LSD, so can't comment. But I am curious. Is this a known and measured dosage you're describing, or is it judged by rule of thumb (say, an eighth of a tab)?
Hmmm ... not sure that analogy really works unless the subject is assumed to have technical expertise in understanding that wiring to begin with -- most of us prefer to interact with the mechanism by adjusting the directly and readily operable feedback devices that are presented for convenience of us on the control-panel itself. But I can see a certain sort of parallel in what you're describing with my own perceptions of social contexts and interconnections under the influence of ecstasy.
Tell me, how did you discover this low-dose effect? By accident, experimentation, or was it something that was already understood in your particular corner of the LSD-using class?
Google "microdosing". There are several reports of this way of doing things on erowid.org.
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