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Aleithei
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13 Jan 2014, 5:20 pm

This may not be the right place to ask this. I am taking linguistics and while learning about the biology associated with speech, I got curious, so I am asking.
For those who are entirely, or partially non-verbal, what is it about speech that is so difficult? Is it moving your articulators (tongue, jaw, etc)? Or is it connecting the sounds to form words, or is it something else entirely?
If this is a rude question I apologize, I am just curious.


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zooguy
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13 Jan 2014, 6:59 pm

I am not one that can speak for the non verbal person. But to me it would be the extreme overwhelming stimulus of the mind and enviroment



Ann2011
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13 Jan 2014, 7:46 pm

I've always had trouble translating my thoughts into words. It has gotten worse as I have gotten older. I try to speak as rarely as possible.

For me it's more mental than physical. My mind can't find the right words or put them in the right order.


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13 Jan 2014, 8:21 pm

Ann2011 wrote:
I've always had trouble translating my thoughts into words. It has gotten worse as I have gotten older. I try to speak as rarely as possible.

For me it's more mental than physical. My mind can't find the right words or put them in the right order.
This is super interesting as well as what the poster above you said because I noticed that when I get very overwhelmed I have trouble with speech and it is very much as you described. And sometimes my speech regresses and sounds like that of a very young child.

But I am very interested in the OP's question as well because I have a friend who's son is I would have to say 98% non verbal and I am also curious about how it works for him. I asked him if we could become friends by emailing, I used to know him when he was very little but we had not seen each other for over ten years. But when I asked him he did not respond to me at all and I am not sure if he understood me or not. I imagine he may have because I know that he is very intelligent but he did not respond so I won't know if he wants to be friends with me unless he initiates written conversation. But I do wonder about how his challenges are similar or different to mine. I would love to be able to be a friend and support to him and I am sure that he would be able to teach me a great deal as well if he chooses to.


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Waterfalls
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13 Jan 2014, 10:13 pm

I can't speak for what it is like for nonverbal people, but the effort includes working to think about communicating, reaching across to another, different mind. It feels like less work to communicate to someone with ASD in some ways, too. And it's just work to organize thoughts into words and then try to reach across and be understandable to another person.

Making the physical movements isn't really an issue. Getting them in a wrong order is stressful, in terms of it interferes a lot with communicating, and with being taken seriously. And getting upset about ones ability to communicate is discouraging, makes it harder.

I'd imagine it'll be hard to get really non-verbal people to respond, but this is a really interesting thread!



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13 Jan 2014, 11:18 pm

Waterfalls wrote:
...I'd imagine it'll be hard to get really non-verbal people to respond...


You'd imagine incorrectly.

It's been found there are many non-verbal autistics that, when they get their hands on a keyboard, have proven very clearly "there IS someone in there". They type complete sentences in many cases, and are very articulate. That's why this thread has been started. There may be people who post right here on this website who are non-verbal, but communicate very well in the forums.

I see from your profile that you aren't on the spectrum yourself, but have a family member with Asperger's.

Aspies either tend to be or are exclusively VERBAL. Seems to be the factor that separates them from other people with HFA.

As you said, you can't really speak for the non-verbal. I mean, your Aspie relative never had any delay or regression in speech, did they?


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13 Jan 2014, 11:27 pm

Sethno wrote:
Waterfalls wrote:
...I'd imagine it'll be hard to get really non-verbal people to respond...


You'd imagine incorrectly.

It's been found there are many non-verbal autistics that, when they get their hands on a keyboard, have proven very clearly "there IS someone in there". They type complete sentences in many cases, and are very articulate. That's why this thread has been started. There may be people who post right here on this website who are non-verbal, but communicate very well in the forums.

I see from your profile that you aren't on the spectrum yourself, but have a family member with Asperger's.

Aspies either tend to be or are exclusively VERBAL. Seems to be the factor that separates them from other people with HFA.

As you said, you can't really speak for the non-verbal. I mean, your Aspie relative never had any delay or regression in speech, did they?

One of my favorite posters here is Kingdomofrats. She is very eloquent in her posts and she is nonverbal. I have learned so much from her and hopefully she will post on this thread as well. I have heard that in written communication there is a part of the brain that is bypassed which is used for speech. I find that when I get overwhelmed and really stressed and my speech starts to decline I seem to be able to write very well. Perhaps this is a similar issue with our nonverbal spectrumites. I am sure that they will be glad to help us understand more on this topic.


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14 Jan 2014, 4:27 am

For me it is aparxia or dysparxia of speech which you can read about here
Basically its a coordination problem between lips, tongue and jaw movements that gives me what I call "mushmouth" and my cousin calls me "mister mumbles" (affectionately).
And also a problem translating thought into verbal speech. This crosses over into any kind of back and
forth corresponding in PM for instance and in texting. I am unable to talk in internet chat rooms.
There is also selective mutism where there is just a psychological block that keeps me from even trying to talk.
And even though i sound articulate in writing stuff like this, I have to make many corrections in grammar and spelling (due to dyslexic blunders) before pressing the submit button.



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14 Jan 2014, 7:02 am

It seems like I didn't understand how people are using the term nonverbal.

To me nonverbal means nonverbal.

If it takes a long time to talk, or it's too hard to do except in certain circumstances, or most people would not have the patience to listen to a person, I did not have any idea anyone would call that nonverbal. And I have trouble understanding why and how that is thought of as nonverbal, which to me means no meaningful verbalizations of language, ever.

And Ezra, thank you, again. You often seem to take a concept that people are discussing that I am lost and becoming increasingly upset about and pull out the meaning and express it in a concrete and understandable manner. It really helped me get it that you threw in how the apraxia and trouble translating thoughts and anxiety over speaking are specific factors making it difficult, maybe impossible though I get the impression you are verbal as I understand the word, but not from the perspectives of those who expect the same smoothness with oral communication as with written. I'm curious which, but it doesn't matter because you seem like a very special and unique person, as each one of us is, and you help me understand the world as others see it--I'm very grateful, few are able to do that for me. Thank you. Thank you.



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14 Jan 2014, 8:14 am

skibum wrote:
Sethno wrote:
Waterfalls wrote:
...I'd imagine it'll be hard to get really non-verbal people to respond...


You'd imagine incorrectly.

It's been found there are many non-verbal autistics that, when they get their hands on a keyboard, have proven very clearly "there IS someone in there". They type complete sentences in many cases, and are very articulate. That's why this thread has been started. There may be people who post right here on this website who are non-verbal, but communicate very well in the forums.

I see from your profile that you aren't on the spectrum yourself, but have a family member with Asperger's.

Aspies either tend to be or are exclusively VERBAL. Seems to be the factor that separates them from other people with HFA.

As you said, you can't really speak for the non-verbal. I mean, your Aspie relative never had any delay or regression in speech, did they?

One of my favorite posters here is Kingdomofrats. She is very eloquent in her posts and she is nonverbal. I have learned so much from her and hopefully she will post on this thread as well. I have heard that in written communication there is a part of the brain that is bypassed which is used for speech. I find that when I get overwhelmed and really stressed and my speech starts to decline I seem to be able to write very well. Perhaps this is a similar issue with our nonverbal spectrumites. I am sure that they will be glad to help us understand more on this topic.

thanks skibum. :)

aleithi,
it differs from person to person as non verbal autism experiences are all unique cases,speaking in own case it is like language has never been learned and am unable to make sounds apart from grunting noises,some years back had had EEGs at hope hospital [a neurology specialist hospital in salford,uk] and they revealed that the mid right temporal lobe was abnormal-this part of the brain is involved in communication and the senses, had once spoken to another mixed verbal/non verbal user here;amanda baggs and she said she had had the same result as well.
what makes it more complex is am not always non verbal,when am verbal am fully echolalic though and can only speak by building language together from 'recorded' messages said by others [,plus am not able to think in language so it takes a long time to translate imagery in head to language.

some non verbal autistics never develop any connections to language so will never be able to communicate through the written form either,most non verbal autistics
are not fully non verbal and have sounds or echolalia,the term doesnt mean strictly non verbal.



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14 Jan 2014, 8:29 am

Ok, this is starting to make more sense now, it is still very upsetting to me how differently we all use language, even when I think I understand, sometimes I do not; but I am trying to understand the gradations in meaning of the term nonverbal, thank you Kingdom of Rats.



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14 Jan 2014, 9:04 am

Waterfalls wrote:
It seems like I didn't understand how people are using the term nonverbal.

To me nonverbal means nonverbal.

If it takes a long time to talk, or it's too hard to do except in certain circumstances, or most people would not have the patience to listen to a person, I did not have any idea anyone would call that nonverbal. And I have trouble understanding why and how that is thought of as nonverbal, which to me means no meaningful verbalizations of language, ever.

And Ezra, thank you, again. You often seem to take a concept that people are discussing that I am lost and becoming increasingly upset about and pull out the meaning and express it in a concrete and understandable manner. It really helped me get it that you threw in how the apraxia and trouble translating thoughts and anxiety over speaking are specific factors making it difficult, maybe impossible though I get the impression you are verbal as I understand the word, but not from the perspectives of those who expect the same smoothness with oral communication as with written. I'm curious which, but it doesn't matter because you seem like a very special and unique person, as each one of us is, and you help me understand the world as others see it--I'm very grateful, few are able to do that for me. Thank you. Thank you.


Well thank you very much, thats very nice to hear.
Lots of times im sure i have a squinty eyed pained expression on my face sorting things
out in my head and then typing them out. One thing I should say is that I was fully non verbal
at one point, but not entirely so now. Theres a name for that but i can't remember what it is.
I think the main issue in nonverbal is the language center of the brain being messed up, and it is
one of those "your mileage may very" things. I was able to bypass the problem to some extent.
I guess it is like if you had a car where the engine was constantly sputtering and stalling out, you
couldn't necessarily say it has a running engine. But its really up to whoever is evaluating me to
put whatever label on me whether its "nonverbal" or that other thing. The family calls it, "doesn't
have much to say" or "isn't much of a talker" :P



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14 Jan 2014, 9:27 am

I'm not non-verbal, but I struggle with verbal language nevertheless. I can write well (I know there are a couple of typographical errors here and there in my posts, but English is not my mother tongue), but writing uses a different part of the brain than speaking does. Regarding verbal skills, I have a limited vocabulary when it comes to everyday, casual words—but I'm quite well adept at technical words concerning my special interests. I also have problems forming long sentences when talking to other people.

The discrepancies between my overall intelligence and my verbal skills, were one of the key factors that led to the diagnosis. Problems with language are probably the norm and not the exception for those with Asperger's who do not meet the criteria (about 20% do not) for NLD as a secondary diagnosis.



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14 Jan 2014, 10:21 am

I'm partially non-verbal, I can speak fine, I just have extreme difficulty with conversations, reciprocation is the most difficult aspect for me, and the reason I don't speak much.


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14 Jan 2014, 10:39 am

I'm verbal but I lose speech for hours at a time (not selective mutism); I refer to this as "going nonverbal", because when I'm in this state I cannot speak, can usually make very limited sounds, and can write.

In that state, its like when I try to convert thoughts to speech, they get jumbled and lost. They're gone. I get confused. Or, I can try and try to speak, and nothing comes out. It feels like it gets stuck, mentally, before speech. So I think "I want to get this idea across" or something, and convert the thoughts to words and then go to speak, and it gets stuck like that. It feels like I'm constantly aware of how many steps there are to speaking, and how much effort it takes, and when it goes to this, then I can't get them through all those steps, its too hard to.

Typing, that's so much easier. It bypasses all these steps. It is a level where I can just type out exactly what I'm thinking without going through translation steps into these "spoken word" things. No matter how verbal I am at the moment, typing is easier, especially when I want to write out things about how I am. I can just type and have things flow. I can't do that in speech. Speech requires thought, concentration, figuring out what its like, and what to say.

When I just can't get the proper sounds out is also a pain too, but that's not related to not being able to speak to me I don't think.

Also, I agree that KingdomofRats makes awesome posts.



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14 Jan 2014, 11:15 am

Waterfalls wrote:
Ok, this is starting to make more sense now, it is still very upsetting to me how differently we all use language, even when I think I understand, sometimes I do not; but I am trying to understand the gradations in meaning of the term nonverbal, thank you Kingdom of Rats.
Waterfalls, I wonder why this is upsetting to you. I find it very fascinating and interesting and wonderful to learn about. I totally respect how you feel but I wonder why it upsets you.


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