Jerry Newport's Views on male to female AS ratio

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In Jerry and Mary Newport's book "Mozart and the Whale" (absolutely fantastic and worth reading btw) Jerry writes:
"I've never put much faith in the so-called four-to-one ratio touted by many experts. I've always felt that autism is seen more in men because basic autistic traits tend to run counter to the accepted way our culture believed men are supposed to behave. In other words autism is just easier to detect in males."

Before I read this book I was telling everyone this and I think Jerry has hit the nail on the head. What do you all think about it? Is it true or false in your eyes? Is it something that the Austistic/Aspie community should try to put forward to all the Psychologists/Psychiatrists/Parents/teachers out there? Should we be concerned about the undiagnosed women out there?

Yeah, I'd have to agree with that.

I never believed the 1:4 ratio for a second.

Tim

From my own experience and that of my best friend, I'd have to say that for women, we tend to bring out protectiveness in people. They might think we're strange, but I think at times they put it down to being overly shy, childlike, imaginative (when we live in our own heads or play until a later age), naive (when we don't read other people and especially men well) and just socially awkward. If we're clumsy, they may think that we are just painfully shy and that's why we're so reclusive. They may put our behavior down to oversensitivity. I didn't tend to strike out much. I withdrew. That in itself I think hides alot. Even writing and reading in class was tolerated with me and I'm not certain why (you didn't have all these special classes or things in school back then). I could keep up, but I was always doing something else while class was going on. I think they just interpreted that as extreme bookishness and talent. They seemed to work around me and in fact almost nutured that in me. I still see some of it at work. Where it backfires now is that I'm viewed as cold, harsh, abrasive and distant. My emails are extremely male-like and they are always offending no matter how many times I read them over.


Also, and sorry about this guys, I think it's easier for an Aspie woman to find a man, even to marry. I think that's because men don't look too deeply into women. If we're attractive to them, they aren't going to look much deeper or they will overlook what would otherwise be considered bizarre or at least different behavior. The only way that could become an issue for an Aspie girl is if we found their touch repulsive. That would cause immediate problems. I also think that men are more tolerant of an abnormal relationship. So, if they have to do some things to make up for an Aspie girl's weirdness, I think they are willing to do that if it means they won't be alone.

I think he's right about the ratio being wrong; but I'm not sure that's necessarily the reason. I think it has more to do with the following facts:

1. ASD boys tend to act out and become the focus of attention.

2. Girls in general are taught very early to be compliant, pleasant and not cause trouble.

3. ASD girls are quicker to learn how to appear "normal".

4. ASD girls tend to internalize their problems so they slip unnoticed through the cracks.

5. Women with ASD are less likely to be diagnosed as experiencing "significant impairment" in the various areas addressed by the DSM because their innate female qualities allow them to develop better coping mechanisms.

6. Women in our society are not thought of as dysfunctional if they "choose" not to work and instead stay home; men, on the other hand, are still often thought of as strange or inferior if they can't enter the work force, and very few have the option of being supported by a working wife while they stay at home. (This one does tie in to what Jerry says.)

Last edited by Melantha on 13 Feb 2007, 5:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I don't know that so much of that was true of me. I was never compliant or felt the need to be pleasant, I was just quiet. I also don't think I ever appeared normal (certainly no one called me that), but my strangeness was more tolerated than it was in boys. I can't say I ever internalized a problem. I either didn't care or they knew about it immediately. Maybe because I didn't care? I don't know. All I know is that my strangeness was tolerated.

*nods*

I've never met anyone in real life that I knew was an aspie, but from what I see online, there's no way 4:1 is the correct ratio.



For one, I never have, and have never heard of, AS boys "acting out." To the contrary, I was always extremely withdrawn. I also don't believe for a second that AS girls are better at pretending to be normal than guys. If the condition affects all people with the same impairments, that wouldn't make any sense. What's more likely is that the "aspie personality," what people see from the outside, is more socially acceptable in a girl than it is in a guy, and thus they feel more normal. Alot of this post sounds almost like gender superiority rhetoric to me. "Innate female qualities?" What the hell? And the implication that we're more vocal about our problems as opposed to "internalizing" them? No way that's me.

Interesting discussion. It is interesting that females do frequently go undiagnosed, because in the end, you would think it would stand out more if a female behaves in a more male oriented fashion...afterall, some see Aspergers as being down to an extreme male/logical mode of functioning? Also, I notice that females are frequently misdiagnosed, possibly because certain Aspergers traits show themselves in different form...for example, it seems that Aspie females are more likely to become obsessed with characters and individual people than males, from what I see, as opposed to just objects, history, certain topics etc. I know I have managed to turn this into an art form and when totally obsessed by a person, will analyse their every move and word.

Also, correct me if I am wrong, but females are more prone to self harming tendencies. This, coupled with the people obsessions can lead to a misdiagnosis of borderline personality disorder. I have come across quite a few who were mistakenly given this diagnosis, but where is the line? There are indeed many similarities between AS and other disorders. I have seen posts by females on AS boards that remind me very much of posts I have seen on borderline personality disorder boards, which does make me think...how many are misdiagnosed as AS when they have Bpd, and vice versa?

Personally, when young, I had a tendency to act out. I was disruptive, I disobeyed rules, I was always in trouble, yet I was also very naive and endearing, some would say. I do not think I ever made any attempts to appear 'normal, though my mother tried to normalise me throughout my childhood.

Well, I have. That's why a lot of AS boys get misdiagnosed with ADD or ADHD, because they exhibit disruptive behaviors in school.

Yes. Innate female qualities. It has been shown over and over again that men in general have better spatial and analytical skills and women in general have better language and social skills. If you want to argue about that, you'd better take it up with the researchers who came up with those results, not me. I said NOTHING about superiority; the genders are DIFFERENT, that's all. Different strengths do not mean a superior/inferior value judgment!! ! Women's GENDER-BASED affinity for social perception and adaptation gives them a slight edge in masking and coping with their AS; that's not to say all AS women can act "normal", it just means that however bad a woman's AS is, if she was male it would probably be worse.

I did not say men are "vocal" about their problems at all. Stop INTERPRETING my words and just read them; really, I say what I mean. What I meant by saying girls "internalize" their problems more is that many girls turn their frustrations and anger and loneliness against themselves, by doing such things as cutting themselves, starving themselves etc. Boys tend to direct their anger and frustration at external targets; many AS men have trouble staying out of fights and conflicts. NOT ALL. But many. If that's not your experience, that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Your experience is only applicable to you.

If you say so. I've never heard of it.



Yeah, I've read Simon Baron Cohen's book. But if AS is when systemizing eclipses empathizing, in either gender, then what "innate female qualities" do girls have over guys? Just the possibility that they aren't as aspie, which isn't what you said. You said:

You see the difference?



How am I supposed to understand what you're saying if I don't interpret your words? It's the same concept either way; I don't do that, and I've talked to a LOT of people online, none of whom ever mentioned doing that, so I don't know where you get that from. I'm relating what, as a guy with AS, I know about guys with AS. Maybe there is some source that has observed AS guys being more aggressive, but without that information is just looks like you're going off traditional guy vs. girl steriotypes, which I don't think apply to people with AS. It's been my experience that most people with AS internalize their feelings and experience a degree of self loathing.

Beyond that, even if we are more aggressive and outspoken, I don't think that is what leads to us being diagnosed and isolated more often. I think that, for a guy, AS cripples them in their ability to be what society expects of them; were supposed to be forward, confident, in control of or at least with the belief that we're in control of any situation, things that aspies can't usually do. When we can't, people start looking at us weird. That's what lead to me being diagnosed, and I'm even high-functioning.

By the way, I'm a huge master system fan.

I am 27 years old (and thus, about 5 years older than the traditional college student), and I will be attending college full-time beginning this fall. To an NT woman, would this be more likely to be seen as a sign of responsibility (because I would be advancing in my career, and preparing for a better job), or would this be more likely to be seen as strange/inferior (because I would not be in a full-time paid position at that time)?

Tim

Last edited by Tim_Tex on 13 Feb 2007, 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I don't know. All I know is myself and my best friend, also a female Aspie. Neither one of us ever internalized anything nor were we self harming because of our Aspie-ness. Neither one of us was ever called normal, but we were accepted in our strangeness and basically treated as if we were gifted. We're both writers, but she doesn't even write fiction so you couldn't say she was into characters. I write fiction, but if I didn't let you read it, which I only let a few people read it, you'd never know that I was writing about characters. She's also a painter, while I am musically inclined. We are both highly analytic and scored in the top ten percent on spatial aptitude. We are both into Physics.

On the other hand, as has been observed through anecdotal evidence (let's face it, they haven't even found enough females to frame any true scientific theory about females and they admit as much, it's all theory right now), we are both childlike and are treated that way. We have both been protected from the world (and neither one of us by our mothers because we both have psycho moms). Neither one of us were perceived as threats even though we both are incredibly antisocial and always have been.

As to any kind of innate female thing, I'd be hard put to see that. I'm neither domestic or nurturing. There are just as many men writing and getting obsessed with characters as women. (I have a BA and MA in English, so I have read them.) I certainly never obsessed with them outside my writing, in fact I wouldn't say I did obsess with them in my writing. They are characters. I didn't obsess on people either, nor did my friend. If anything, when it came to social interaction, my AS made me a target, mostly from females, for being abrasive, rude, unfeeling, blah blah blah. <rolling eyes here> Men rarely have that problem although I have managed to stomp on the feelings of some men because my speech and writing are not warm and fuzzy. Whatever. Get over it already. If they need warm and fuzzy, there's Ann Landers. I'm sure she will get all warm and fuzzy for them because she's paid enough to do it. As for me, my Meyer's Briggs score for feeler is 0. Zero. That's it.

Then again, the fact that I am INTJ and we are 1-2% of the population and hardly any of that is female probably accounts for alot. My brother just says my second X isn't fully formed and he's probably right.

I agree for many years I could not get a proper AS diagnosis because I did not act out aggressively as many of the male AS kids did. Because I was withdrawn the teachers and psychologist labeled me “shy” “quiet” and the like.

Funny thing it took a male specialist in the subject to notice my aspie tendencies before any other female therapist I’ve ever had.

If doctors would just see that an autistic girl might act differently from an autistic boy based on gender roles and environment then maybe there would be a more precise ratio.

You're certainly right there. 8-( And the TRADITIONAL US place for women has been at HOME, where SHE dictates social events,etc. So marriage to a successful man could put an AS woman into a fairly comfortable position. If he understands her problems, and cares for her, she can be pretty happy.

Still, I don't know how some women handle kids. *I* was a nice well behaved kid, and gave my parents little hassle. They DID appreciate it, but not as much as they should have. I have always wondered if a kid I fathered would be as nice. I COULD see an AS mom maybe having trouble with kids if she had some of the problems some women here talk about, and the kids WEREN'T nice.

Steve

I also have a BA in English and am an INTJ, but I do get obsessed by characters, meaning I analyse their role within books. I analyse their characters and talk about them a lot. The same happens with real life people. I will become fixated on a person and just analyse them and talk about them all the time, much the same as I might talk about my obsession with a specific historic period or a specific book. I am childlike in ways, but mature in other ways due to my logic and intelligence. As for nurturing etc, absolutely not. However, I have come across many aspies who self harm or have self harmed and it is raised in some of the literature.

I agree with much of what everbody has been saying
It seems based on the internet in particular that women aspies are fairly commonplace.
The exact ratio well who knows?