What is the Validity of Autism Diagnoses?

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AJH91
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28 Mar 2014, 6:57 am

Nowadays more and more people are being diagnosed with high functioning autism and people who are at all socially awkward or struggle in other areas of their life are looking for answers from these kinds of tests. I also know someone who is mildly autistic - or has been labelled with high functioning autism - and she just uses it as an emotional crutch. We were playing a word association game where everyone has to guess what things could be associated with whatever it is that you are describing within a given time frame, and she was giving long elaborate descriptions and then shouting "stop interrupting me" when people were trying to guess what it was before the time was up. If people get upset with her, she says, "it's not my fault, I can't help it, I'm autistic", she has no life, she doesn't go to the gym and exercise or even shower as much as she ought to, complains that she's never had a boyfriend and whenever I see her she is always finding something to complain about rather than talk about something positive. I want to tell her that the problem is not so much that she is autistic as much as it that she's f*****g boring.

I know that when I was in school I had a very vague (unofficial) diagnosis of language impairments and some possible, mild autistic traits but this was never confirmed officially and I feel that it became a convenient label for teachers to just pidgeonhole me as someone with asperger's if I was ever difficult to manage. It became a self-fulfilling prophecy and I kind of believed that I had to act somewhat obsessively and be slow on exams and that kind of thing just because it was what was expected me. My parents insisted that I had to have an LSA and the school made her sit next to me. I became more problematic as a result, didn't get on with her because of the way it made me look to the other children and couldn't focus on lessons either so my concentration became worse and worse. If I ever brought it up with my mum, her attitude would always be, "stop self-pitying and blaming your problems on everyone else" and "of course you need all of this support, look at how much you struggle". And I would be made to feel guilty because she was doing all of these things to 'help' me and I wasn't being appreciative of the support. She stopped me from going to school for exams because they wouldn't sort out a separate room and extra time for me and the other kids resented me for that and the fact I had a helper. I was a weirdo whether I liked it or not and yeah, of course, I acted in strange, sometimes desperate ways to make friends, as a result but that was because I was made to feel isolated and alienated from everybody. I was at a grammar school where people liked to poke fun at my lack of general knowledge and memory and concentration impairments amongst other things and it's effected the way I interact with people as an adult because now I don't feel like I can even follow basic small talk as a result of constant attacks on my self-esteem throughout my life and feelings that I have all these problems with language and communication and body language.

Everyone on T.V. who had asperger's always stereotypically had really nasal voices; they were obsessed with 'facts', not opinions; their interests were really geeky, obsessional and they would bore you with their technical expertise in these subjects and a host of other things. I was the polar opposite of this, or at least I felt I was, even if I could be a bit aspergic on a bad day or socially awkward because of the things that had happened in my life.

So my question is, do these diagnoses sometimes do more harm than good? Isn't everyone 'autistic' to some smaller degree? People that have been labelled with asperger's as a teenager have learnt to overcome lots of their difficulties and be very social and very successful people. People that you wouldn't believe had asperger's if you met them face to face. Is there some inherent, magical world of communication that people with asperger's are missing out on? I can see when someone is friendly, open and communicative and I can see when someone is closed or doesn't feel like speaking to me. If I overanalyse things it is because I am hyper cautious since in the past I've been told I have difficulties with these things but in truth, I just don't believe it and I don't believe that there is anything particularly different about me to anybody else. I think I'm just a normal guy who's been told he was different and so it became a self-fulfilling prophecy.



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28 Mar 2014, 7:02 am

No, I don't believe everyone is autistic. What is true is that everyone is a person. If the label is bothering you, drop the labels and see people as people, and let them know this. Even if they use the label, you can respond to them as a person, with respect for them and yourself.



AJH91
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28 Mar 2014, 7:09 am

Waterfalls wrote:
No, I don't believe everyone is autistic. What is true is that everyone is a person. If the label is bothering you, drop the labels and see people as people, and let them know this. Even if they use the label, you can respond to them as a person, with respect for them and yourself.


I do and I have dropped these labels but my thought is that it's on people's minds regardless and I don't even know if it's true myself, so why should they assume it's true based on generalised beliefs and attitudes they have without having known everything that I've been through and without knowing that other circumstances could have affected my personality. I don't discuss autism with my friends but it always feels like I know they know and they know that I do as well. I have odd ways of interacting with people and they can feel my frustration and resentment when I find it difficult to follow a conversation or be spontaneous and think of things to talk about. I have people's understanding and friendship but I don't feel like I'm fully connecting with them, it just seems like they feel sorry for me at times.



Opi
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28 Mar 2014, 7:25 am

any diagnosis is simply shorthand for a certain constellation of symptoms, usually severe enough to reduce our ability to function to a significant degree. sure, every diagnosable disorder is simply an exaggeration of traits all human beings share, or deficits in certain abilities. but not all share to the degree that it impairs their ability to function past a certain point. that's when a diagnosis comes in handy - not because it is "reality" but because it helps (mainly others) to understand how to treat us / support us. as an Aspie with PTSD I have different needs and respond to different treatments (to a point) from your average introverted NT with PTSD. helps explain why some of my comorbid mental illnesses have been so intractible over the years even though i've been highly motivated in treatment - typically takes me 4-5 times as long to respond, if i do.

however, the problems you pointed out are precisely why many clinicians are schooled to 1) make the minimally severe diagnosis possible and why some clinicians try to avoid diagnosis altogether - because so many people tend to over-identify with the diagnosis. that's why a good clinician is careful to say "a person with autism/Asperger's syndrome" rather than "an autistic person." if the symptoms change or new symptoms are detected, guess what? your diagnosis may very well change completely. Diagnosis can help us try to understand ourselves, help ourselves, and help other people help us. But it is very provisional and should always be taken that way.

So yeah, sometimes people use any diagnosis as an excuse. Or, they may be very unhappy and resentful about having a given issue and be working through that anger and grief. That's the risk of getting a diagnosis. However, if they didn't have an explanation and were still struggling with the issues attendant to, say, Asperger's, would they be better off? What i ended up doing was internalizing all the judgement, criticism, and failure as reflecting on my personal worth and character, which was incredibly demoralizing and damaging. Was I any better off having failed to get a diagnosis early in life? I don't really think so.

I try not to use Asperger's to make excuses but the bottom line is, sometimes it is a *reason* why i behave poorly under certain stressors, and it's not either fair to me to fail to recognize that. I'm trying to use the information to care for myself better, learn my limits, find a way to live my life more functionally by accommodating same more effectively. Everyone has limits; mine are just a little different from some others. Nothing is more frustrating than to have someone tell me it's a choice to be, say, overwhelmed by too many people or loud noises or sudden changes in my schedule. No, it's not.

The hardest part is training the people closest to me to understand it's not always within my ability to control how i react when they continually pressure me to react like an NT and refuse to/can't acknowledge, accept, or understand my differences. Then i am left with the choice to reject the few relationships i have to anchor me, or suffer through the pains of trying. Fortunately at least two people in my life are starting to finally "get" it and give me space when i need it.


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AJH91
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28 Mar 2014, 11:08 am

Thank you for taking the time to write a reply, Opi. I think I have the opposite problem of people thinking I need time to myself when in actual fact, I would be grateful for the company.

My question is, how would it be known that most people do not have some degree of autistic spectrum disorder? Are there visible neurophysiological differences between the brain structures of individuals with high functioning autism and neurotypical individuals? It should be noted that by no means am I questioning the validity of classic autistic spectrum disorders. However, it seems that neurotypical individuals can have obsessional interests, experience misreading of social cues and possess other traits that could be characterised of mild autism, while individuals with asperger's can also learn to change these traits, should they become a considerable inconvenience.



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28 Mar 2014, 11:15 am

i suggest you read the diagnostic criteria for each of the diagnoses you mention and decide for yourself.

the difference is a particular constellation of symptoms and the degree to which they impact function.


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28 Mar 2014, 11:16 am

That was a very helpful and impressive response opi.
I observe here often on WP, a very human resentment
from those more isolated in the spectrum towards
those less so.........suffering is relative.



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28 Mar 2014, 1:31 pm

AJH91 wrote:
Individuals with asperger's can also learn to change these traits, should they become a considerable inconvenience.


Really? I have never found this to be true for me.


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28 Mar 2014, 1:33 pm

I do find that people who want an excuse will find one. They don't need a diagnosis, and if they don't have one, they find something or someone else to blame.



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28 Mar 2014, 1:34 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
AJH91 wrote:
Individuals with asperger's can also learn to change these traits, should they become a considerable inconvenience.


Really? I have never found this to be true for me.


i agree. i have learned over the years to compensate for some traits, although it is tiring and my ability to do it is limited/imperfect. the traits themselves never go away, and at this point in my life, i'm not willing to make myself miserable to make everyone else happy. especially since that's basically impossible.


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28 Mar 2014, 1:35 pm

AJH91 wrote:
Nowadays more and more people are being diagnosed with high functioning autism and people who are at all socially awkward or struggle in other areas of their life are looking for answers from these kinds of tests. I also know someone who is mildly autistic - or has been labelled with high functioning autism - and she just uses it as an emotional crutch. We were playing a word association game where everyone has to guess what things could be associated with whatever it is that you are describing within a given time frame, and she was giving long elaborate descriptions and then shouting "stop interrupting me" when people were trying to guess what it was before the time was up. If people get upset with her, she says, "it's not my fault, I can't help it, I'm autistic", she has no life, she doesn't go to the gym and exercise or even shower as much as she ought to, complains that she's never had a boyfriend and whenever I see her she is always finding something to complain about rather than talk about something positive. I want to tell her that the problem is not so much that she is autistic as much as it that she's f***ing boring.

I know that when I was in school I had a very vague (unofficial) diagnosis of language impairments and some possible, mild autistic traits but this was never confirmed officially and I feel that it became a convenient label for teachers to just pidgeonhole me as someone with asperger's if I was ever difficult to manage. It became a self-fulfilling prophecy and I kind of believed that I had to act somewhat obsessively and be slow on exams and that kind of thing just because it was what was expected me. My parents insisted that I had to have an LSA and the school made her sit next to me. I became more problematic as a result, didn't get on with her because of the way it made me look to the other children and couldn't focus on lessons either so my concentration became worse and worse. If I ever brought it up with my mum, her attitude would always be, "stop self-pitying and blaming your problems on everyone else" and "of course you need all of this support, look at how much you struggle". And I would be made to feel guilty because she was doing all of these things to 'help' me and I wasn't being appreciative of the support. She stopped me from going to school for exams because they wouldn't sort out a separate room and extra time for me and the other kids resented me for that and the fact I had a helper. I was a weirdo whether I liked it or not and yeah, of course, I acted in strange, sometimes desperate ways to make friends, as a result but that was because I was made to feel isolated and alienated from everybody. I was at a grammar school where people liked to poke fun at my lack of general knowledge and memory and concentration impairments amongst other things and it's effected the way I interact with people as an adult because now I don't feel like I can even follow basic small talk as a result of constant attacks on my self-esteem throughout my life and feelings that I have all these problems with language and communication and body language.

Everyone on T.V. who had asperger's always stereotypically had really nasal voices; they were obsessed with 'facts', not opinions; their interests were really geeky, obsessional and they would bore you with their technical expertise in these subjects and a host of other things. I was the polar opposite of this, or at least I felt I was, even if I could be a bit aspergic on a bad day or socially awkward because of the things that had happened in my life.

So my question is, do these diagnoses sometimes do more harm than good? Isn't everyone 'autistic' to some smaller degree? People that have been labelled with asperger's as a teenager have learnt to overcome lots of their difficulties and be very social and very successful people. People that you wouldn't believe had asperger's if you met them face to face. Is there some inherent, magical world of communication that people with asperger's are missing out on? I can see when someone is friendly, open and communicative and I can see when someone is closed or doesn't feel like speaking to me. If I overanalyse things it is because I am hyper cautious since in the past I've been told I have difficulties with these things but in truth, I just don't believe it and I don't believe that there is anything particularly different about me to anybody else. I think I'm just a normal guy who's been told he was different and so it became a self-fulfilling prophecy.


Quote:
So my question is, do these diagnoses sometimes do more harm than good? Isn't everyone 'autistic' to some smaller degree?

Hi. I would like to participate on this thread but am kind of afraid to because I have recently expressed an idea very similar to this and been told that I would have to learn to adjust my speech. Maybe I should try to go ahead anyway, as if I cop out I would lose respect for myself.

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp5969955.html#5969955

If you read this message (starting right below the quote by Janissy) and the rest of this page and the page that follows, you will see the entire dialogue around my comment, but perhaps you have already read it.
Quote:
Probably this lack of understanding was because I am autistic, though I did not see this at the time, but everybody is kind of autistic in some way or other, imo including so-called nts, so I do not know if this is logical to factor into the dialogue, as there is always this anomaly factor in human relationship.

Note that I wasn't even talking about other autistic people, but was talking about myself, my own thinking and what I perceived to be practical for me, and also note that I was was making this comment in the context of human brain function in general which includes my own and that I did acknowledge the validity of the criticism given, though while also saying I thought the thinking around it was kind of black and white.The subsequent dialogue goes on for two pages.

Interesting that in this particular instance I am being threatened and criticized for being myself and thinking in the best way I can, which way to me seems very good, actually, as I am a deep thinker and always looking for possible flaws in my own thinking (which I was doing in that particular instance and what that comment was actually about) and yet this same kind of criticism and lack of understanding and even (perceived by me as) psychological violence toward me is the same thing that many people on WP are complaining that so-called nt's are doing to them. It is a tad bizarre, though imo common human behavior, which is another point I was making. Is this kind of speech taking autism away from autistic people or saying their autism is not real? No, and to imply that I was doing that in this instance is to me ridiculous, and yet some people really do discount the difficulty autistic people are having and tell them they should only try harder. That is a valid point. Again, not intended to discount that some autistic people really are discounted in certain situations, but my guess is that because people are autistic, including myself, we tend to over-exaggerate certain details and they become more intense and then we further throw the weight of our own interpretations in this one direction in a way which can create an imbalance which leads to even further intensity and suffering..I do this a lot, but I do not believe I am doing so now, though by writing this and forcing myself to go against my tendency not to speak, I am experiencing a form of terror.


..................................

(p.s. I just reread what I wrote before posting this and the feeling of terror has subsided because I got so engaged in the editing, but reading what I wrote at the end has brought it back a little due to what I have called the autisitic amplification effect...or it could be the terror amplification effect or I suppose the anything amplification effect:-) ...not to discount the fact that I have lived much of my life in terror...and did not even know until maybe the last year that it was terror.)



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28 Mar 2014, 1:38 pm

I also think sometimes people are quick to take reasons as excuses...when the person stating the reason has no intent of justifying anything and is just trying to explain why they did what they did or reacted that way or whatever.


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28 Mar 2014, 1:56 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
I also think sometimes people are quick to take reasons as excuses...when the person stating the reason has no intent of justifying anything and is just trying to explain why they did what they did or reacted that way or whatever.

Definitely. All kinds of misinterpretation can be going on in both directions, and ones needs to look in both directions, but,the question arises if it is better to look more in the direction of other people than in ones own direction in terms of trying to sort things out? The seemingly logical response would be that it makes more sense to look at this is terms of what other people are doing to oneself, but I think it might be of great value to examine this premise a bit further and explore how ones own thinking about other people may be playing into it..



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28 Mar 2014, 6:38 pm

Opi wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
AJH91 wrote:
Individuals with asperger's can also learn to change these traits, should they become a considerable inconvenience.


Really? I have never found this to be true for me.


i agree. i have learned over the years to compensate for some traits, although it is tiring and my ability to do it is limited/imperfect. the traits themselves never go away, and at this point in my life, i'm not willing to make myself miserable to make everyone else happy. especially since that's basically impossible.

Compensating is changing, compensating is what has exhausted me and many others, and I don't know how much the basic wiring changes, if any. But outward appearance you can change a great deal.

Periodically there are a lot of suicide threads. To me, that desperation is about what living in this world does to us, isn't about just about what other people do, it's about the struggle with internal experience and external appearance and that too much change destroys something internal that one needs to survive.

We can in a great many ways change how we appear to others and adapt. But the amount of effort it takes, to try to make people happy, yes, nothing but misery changing too much to conform, adapting too much. I've no idea where to draw the line and what is too much. But though NTs can have the same existential struggles, I don't think they experience it as a pressure that destroys to try but never succeed in adapting to other human beings expectations.

I agree with the OP that having someone believe in you as a child and learning to believe in yourself makes or destroys you, I don't think it makes a difference though, ASD or not we all can be broken if we grow up without that.



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29 Mar 2014, 1:35 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
Really? I have never found this to be true for me.


Absolutely. I have improved my language impairments, my ability to read social cues, my theory of mind amongst a bunch of other things. I can be obsessive about certain things but I see it as a kind of asset as long as it helps me to attain skills and abilities that are relevant to my life so I haven't really changed that. I'm not OCD about anything either. I'm positive from my own experience that it's possible to overcome these difficulties but then I was diagnosed with pragmatic language impairment, not asperger's.

Opi wrote:
i agree. i have learned over the years to compensate for some traits, although it is tiring and my ability to do it is limited/imperfect. the traits themselves never go away, and at this point in my life, i'm not willing to make myself miserable to make everyone else happy. especially since that's basically impossible.


From my perspective it's not about making everyone else happy, it's about adapting to a world where everyone has different ways of thinking to you. This requires some degree of conformity and I've done this through pure humility and how to win friends and influence people principles. I make a conscientious effort to restrict information about a topic I know in great depth to see what I can learn from the person I am speaking to who may be more proficient than me in different areas. Then I combine my own analytical perspective with their 'see the wood for the trees' mentality and the intelligence I acquire in this way is far greater than if I just locked myself away in a room reading books with no practical relevance. I'm always very, very careful to say 'please', 'thank you' and 'hello' - very important words. I try to shift the emphasis onto the other person when I'm speaking (after all, you already know all that there is to know about yourself, you're going to learn more from listening to other people than talking about yourself). People start to think you're a cool person, really nice and self-deprecating. Everything just ties together and it's great.



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29 Mar 2014, 2:15 pm

AJH91 wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Really? I have never found this to be true for me.


Absolutely. I have improved my language impairments, my ability to read social cues, my theory of mind amongst a bunch of other things. I can be obsessive about certain things but I see it as a kind of asset as long as it helps me to attain skills and abilities that are relevant to my life so I haven't really changed that. I'm not OCD about anything either. I'm positive from my own experience that it's possible to overcome these difficulties but then I was diagnosed with pragmatic language impairment, not asperger's.


Well I am not you...for one so if you did something doesn't mean I could.....I am more aware of various things so I can deal with certain things better, but I haven't been able to rid myself of any autistic traits or anything like that. Still can't make much eye contact and I can't really process what is being said at the same as trying to read body language and such...I have not gotten over any impairments so to speak.


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