Self Defeating Behavior...reality or psycho-babble?

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I have been told most of my life that my behavior was "self-defeating"......(ocassionaly,passive aggressive)


I use to procrastinate about starting school papers,studying for a test,getting supplies I needed for a job or school.Currently I procrastinate(or forget if I have).....making medical appts before my prescription ran out or my teeth were so bad I needed a root canal and a crown(expensive and painful),instead of getting treatment when I would only have needed a small filling.I will wait until the last possible minute to get ready for work and leave for work(but I have done much better with this since I switched to over-nights).

I can understand the concept of "self-defeating" but why would I do it.I did use to have a low self-esteem in some ways(I didnt think I was bad but thought everybody else did,when reality is,most everybody else was indifferent to my existence)But did I really think I needed to "act out" and be punished for it?That doesnt really seem like my normal MO,as I never was a "tantruming kid" and preferred being invisible to attention.

As far as the passive-aggressive.....I certainly did not want to be at school or work or the DRs but I hate the anxiety that precedes "rushing" to an activity.I hate being disorganized and you are often the "center of attention" if you come into class late...very painful.

The reason I am bringing it up is it has been happening to me again.I got a new over-night job but my training is at 7 to 9am and I have been at least 10 min late each time.I want to be there for the training,want to make a good impression.This is a job I really want because I will be around animals.It just seems like "something" always goes wrong.....

First day....I had set my alarm for PM instead of AM and inspite of changing my schedule around for several days to go to bed at 11pm and get up at 5.....I over slept and was 2 hours late.

Second day....Reset the alarm to correct time but boyfriend had turned volume down and I didnt hear it...late about an hour?

Following days....only 10 to 15 min late but kept forcing myself to get up earlier and earlier but couldnt seem to get my timing right....I would think 15 min was plenty of time to get dressed but then notice I had to fix my hair better and had a stain on my pants and find something new to wear.....one day,just started my car and got side tracked by some clothes someone had thrown into dumpster and I was "compelled" to grab it and look through it....other mornings on the internet and very difficult to get off and account for dressing and driving time....everything takes longer then it "logically" should.I have to stress this hasnt been a problem at my past over-night job....maybe because my appearance didnt matter and it had become so ingrained...but what would it matter if I have 2 hours to get ready at night or 2 hours in the morning....Am I more autistic in day light?....New research topic...."Solar powered Autism"....next,on Dateline.


Anyone care to share their experiences with this.......(I do try and get everything ready the night before and set it by the door,otherwise I would be hours late just trying to remember what I need and find it.)

You're like a bloodhound that just follows his nose. While this trait can be sort of endearing personally, NT's will not be amused I'm sure. Have you thought about getting a day planner?

Bloodhound ......?...do you mean I am ADD in trying to get organized or that the above rambling is to random and meandering.

I just tried to reread it myself,very confusing.I am used to not being able to read my own hand writing but I admit my original post is almost incomprihensible,Sorry folks.My only excuse is I have had a headache the past two days....perhaps from new med(Progesteron).

My question was do other people have problems with "self-defeating behavior and what do you think is the cause.Have you been told it is due to self defeating behavior or passive aggressive and do you understand this and think it is accurate DX of this kind of behavior.

Dayplaners dont work but I do write things on a calander.It isnt forgetting the obligation/responsibility....it is procrastinating or avoiding things I find uncomfortable,new,scary.

These are problems many NTs have. I'm not sure it's your AS, but maybe a co-morbid condition, unless it is your subconcious rejecting change. You said you saw a Psych about this? I think your AS might have the potential to mess that up if you are uncommunicative, but certainly you present your symptoms well here. Maybe print this off and take it to a Psych. It describes fairly well what is going on. Some sounds almost like ADD and some does sound like passive/aggressive behavior. The trick is going to be to sort out why. Subconciously you are undermining yourself. That could be low self esteem in part. That would be like I think I am unworthy+I have this opportunity to prove I am worthy+I may fail at this opportunity= Fear of ultimate failure. So, sometimes unconciously our minds seek control of that something like this. If I'm going to fail, I will be the one to decide that. You don't conciously think that because it's become automatic. So, subconciously you set out to undermine yourself. In that way, your brain gives you back control of your own destiny according to what it thinks you want - control over your own failure. That also reinforces your low self-esteem which it recognizes from previous incidents. In other words, your brain is giving you what it thinks you want, but in reality the pattern that has been built by some old incident in your life in which you probably did get frustrated and defeat yourself is not really the one you want. They can help you recognize the pattern for what it is. If you see it, you can teach your brain a new pattern of behavior and take control again, in a different and more concious way. Make sense?


As to the other one, people who don't like change often undermine themselves. I'm not so sure that's passive aggressive behavior or more related to above. Passive/Aggressive is where you suppress what you feel and you "look" for things to support your belief. So, say you want boyfriend to pick up his clothes. Every day you look to see if he does, but you say nothing. You shouldn't have to say anything because you think that everyone knows to pick up their clothes (I'm not sure how this works out for AS). He doesn't pick them up so he must be doing this to deliberately annoy you or because he's lazy. This irritates you and there's no reason to say pick up your clothes when it's obvious. So, you yell at him because the TV is on too loud. He's already on your last nerve after all. That is Passive/Aggressive. You are passive in confronting what really bothers you - the clothes on the floor - and aggressive about what is not - the loud TV. In a dog or cat, you would call that misplaced aggression. I see the neighbor cat out the window. I can't get to neighbor cat. I growl. Human touches me (to comfort me) and startles me. I swat human. The cat has aggression to the other cat but you touch the cat and startle it. Your trying to fix it, but instead you set off fight instinct and the cat swats you. It's the same thing in theory. Your aggression is misplaced, in the previous example to the TV.


To break that cyle, you must force yourself to quit assuming the person does know and simply say what is bothering you. Pick up your clothes. I'm not telling you again. Next time they will go into the trash. That's direct aggession. See the difference? It might be direct, but you own it and the person receiving sure as heck knows what the problem is and the consequences. (Now if he's AS as well, that won't work out too well for you). Oh, and if he leaves them on the floor again and you don't throw them in the trash, that is passive aggression once again.


The reason you are doing it is because for some reason you've set your brain into these patterns. You can recognize it and reset the pattern. It takes 28 days to form a pattern of behavior in your brain (a habit). So, it will take 28 days to set it to something else. Your brain will pick up the new pattern and begin to follow that instead. (If your current behvaior has become like an addiction, you may have to watch for it in the future and repeat this).


Anyway, I suggest you print off what you told us and take that to the Psych. It's a good place to start. Good luck.

Last edited by ZanneMarie on 20 Feb 2007, 9:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.

You just got to your own root cause. That's why your brain is doing this to you. You are scared, it reacts. Again, you'll have to recognize that, then begin to retrain the brain. Psychs are good with these problems. Print off the second post as well and take it in.


On the contrary with your first post. It was stream of conscious. You were just pouring out what was in your head. It might have been the best thing to happen. So, don't be afraid to take it in to a Psych. It had alot of valuable information about the problem and will help them help you.


Oh, and make sure the Psych knows about your AS and that you need visuals of things and you are going to need concrete instructions. The Psych should walk you through many different scenarios and let you practice them. That will be different for you as opposed to a NT client. So point it out or take my post in.

Last edited by ZanneMarie on 20 Feb 2007, 9:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.

ZanneMarie.....Thanks for your response.I would assume by the lack of response from other aspies that this is not some thing they relate to and that you are right in supposing it is Co--morbid.Having only learned about AS recently,I am still sorting out what behavior and cognition are AS and which are "other".Some believe this is irrelevant....Find the problem and address it...."cause and effect" are just intellectual masturbation...(ala....classic school of behaviorism).I tend to waver between this belief(having found RET very effective)and my general enjoyment of intellectual masterbation.I also think it can be helpful to understand under lyeing "cause" as the "treatment" my be different based on "cause".If I am having an allergic reaction to my meds you could give me an antihistamine but if I know it is the med,I should also discontinue it.If driving is causeing me sensory over-load,the correct treatment might not be exposure therepy but finding a new route to work that has less sensory overload.


I guess,that is why I wanted to know.....why is this happening.I was so excited about this job change.I thought I liked myself now and forgave myself past transgressions.Do I really need to perpetuate a belief that I am unworthy of having a job that isnt sheer torture.What kind of masochist does that make me.Crap....thought I was past all this mind numbing circular thinking.

About the psych....He is the one who DXed me and is aware of my AS but I changed jobs and have no current health insurance.
The Psychologist he sent me to,also an "expert" in AS,gave me a script for ADD med,but my reaction to it was hyper-focus and immobility almost to the point of catatonia...not much fun,so I stopped taking it after 2 doses.I may try it again once I get new med insurance but didnt want to start and stop it(not being able to afford it with out insurance).

Thanks again for making it through my rambeling.Headache is receding a bit and hopefully I will be less chaotic in future posts.

Tell them specifically what the meds did. Look that med up online and make sure that what you experienced is not a side effect. Don't wait until it does something really bad to address it. You work nights right? When you get your insurance, go to the doc during the day and talk about those meds. Not good!

Actually, I have the same issues with procrastination, especially with things like dental appointments, getting my housing sorted out, doctors...anything that involves mixing with people, it would seem. I just do not seem to have a sense of urgency for these sorts of things that are often placed at the top of the list by other people. I am more likely to head to the library and do what I want to do, than go to the dentist or sort something out. I tend to leave things until it is imperative I sort them out.

I think the proper name was "executive dysfunction". It seems to be part of several syndromes and disorders.

I also think it's one of those things where executive dysfunction can be causing, but other things as well. Some people have great executive function going on, are not Autistic at all and have those symptoms. It can get very confusing. That's why I really want to see the day when the functional MRI is common. It would show clearly if there is a lack of brain activity in the area of executive function and that would indicate whether this is brain disorder or another problem. Science just cannot move fast enough. The more we learn, the more there is to learn.

Thats pretty much how I feel about my AS DX.I realize I have many " traits"....But for the past 25 years "professionals" have fit them neatly into the Psychological causes.......Drinking to blackout,cutting,difficulty maintaining relationships,suicide attempts,promiscous sexual behavior=low self-esteem,supressed sexual abuse(try and refute that one),adoption with abandonment issues and attachment disorder,chemical dependency,gender confussion......(Nobody addressed sensory issues because....They didnt ask ,so I didnt tell,and who believes a crazy persons "senses" anyway.)I spent years listening to "counselors",my psych teachers,watching humans....to try and figure out why I acted,thought,felt so "different" then most of the people around me.25 years later,there is a new name"for what ails me."Am I really supposed to just trust that they have it right,this time?

I always longed for the day when they would have a genetic marker or chemical blood test or a brain scan to tell me what the hell was going on.(I thought,at, the very least they might find the damn implanted "chip" left in me by the aliens who left me here.)I am considering leaving my brain to "science"....maybe some bright young Aspie in the future will find the anomaly.

It's all going to be guess work. You always try to disprove the last theory. Having said that, I see no benefit from it being shuffled off to a mental disorder in the field of Psychiatry. Do you see brain injuries there? Parkinson's? ALS? MS? No. And because they are not, they are treated with more respect as an actual physical disorder and studied as such. Can you imagine anyone thinking Stephen Hawking's communication issues were emotional or behaviorial issues? It's laughable. If AS was thought to be a brain disorder, you might be sent to rehabilitation, but no one would think to send you to educational behavioral sessions or counseling (except for secondary depression). No one would think to send you to a Pyschologist or Psychiatrist to test you and "fix" you. It would be absurd. Can you just picture someone after a car accident being wheeled into a Pysch ward where some Psychiatrist attempts to diagnose and "fix" the problem?


All of this started because Autism was originally viewed as a behaviorial problem, emotional problem or both. At best they thought it was mental retardation, but even then they sloughed if off to the Psych Dept. What they didn't understand about it would have filled the grand canyon. Furthermore, the people looking at did absolutely nothing for it except give it a bad name. Every time they have thought they had the way to "fix" it, they find out later they are wrong. That is also why it took so long to get the medical community involved in a serious way and why so many years of potential research have been wasted.

It's just frustrating to me that they know now that it is a neurological disorder and it is still in the grip of Psychiatry. It's complete lunacy and I can only believe that has remained the case because Psychiatry does not want to lose the prestige or dollars that come with "owning the problem." It hasn't done one thing for people with the disorder except confuse them even more and deny them access to adequate explanations and rehabiliation options. The most they have done is talk to people and drug them for co-morbid conditions. They focus on that instead the real issue because that would take it out of their hands.

My experience,exactly.I went in for the DX specifically to address my issues with employment.I felt that I was not achieving as much as I could (given my education and other attributes which I felt make me a good employee)and had hoped for specific tests to address what was holding me back and what,if anything, I could do to improve the situation.After 4X 30 min sessions of answering questions(not unlike the aspie quiz of RDOS from this site)I was given a DX and told they had no "tests" to pin point my specific memory/cognitive issues,they had no one qualified in rehabilitation or employment issues but that I could continue to see him to "talk" about what ever "aspie problems and stresses" I might be experiencing from my daily life....I thought that sounded suspiciously like "therepy" and opted out but agreed to go see the psychiatrist to get her opinion....She wrote me a prescription for Adderal.(Am I the only ADD kid in school who managed to get A and B through out school,even with skipping many classes and not handing in half my homework?Pretty much got through college the same way with the addition of weekend binges....I dont think ADD is the problem but maybe I misunderstand the DX)

Anyway,once again....I think you hit the nail on the head with that analysis of the current trend in AS.If they find the genetic marker they will probably get rid of us "defects" all together.The younger ones get to experience the joys of ABA "therepy"which sounds a step above Pavlov's bell and the oldsters like me can feel free to chat about our "angst" for a 20.00 co-pay and a med for twice the price....How far we have come.

And it has occurred to me that I received an As DX for the sole purpose of him having a life time "client"....there arent very many aspies out there,maybe they have to create a few to keep themselves in a very tight netch market?

You hit the nail on the head with the gene thing. Vernon Smith said pretty much the same thing. That is exactly what I think they want to do. Why else concentrate all their time on looking for the gene? There is no other reason to find the gene. So, as if we didn't already feel isolated enough, now we know for sure that because we make them uncomfortable, they can't figure us out and we are "different" (OOOHHHHHH), they think it's time to "fix" the problem by eliminating it. That is also known as a final solution. I mean, you do realize that the Germans started out by legalizing Euthansia and then killing off all the people in Mental Aslylums don't you? If you don't, I suggest you read a book called Nazi Doctors. I took an Ethics class where the professor taught us about how they changed the laws and went from Mental Retardation to mental conditions to dwarfism to homosexuality to Jews/Gypsies and others. That is what they mean when they refer to the "slippery slope." Looking for the gene is getting pretty darn close to the slippery slope.

But, all that aside, I would like to see someone on here tell me the positive things that the doctors did for them after their diagnosis and not for co-morbid conditions.


I still picture Stephen Hawking with these people and they rip out his mechanical voice and tell him that with behaviorial therapy he will be able to talk. It just makes me shake my head. I have to work. I don't have time or money to contribute to the power trips.

Procrastinate Now ! !! !

Prof,

Thanks for making me laugh and pulling me out of the obsessive morbidity! Yuck. I need that. I also thought it was hilarious!