(Not so)Quiet corner discussion. If possible.

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This will take some time and elaboration. I have been struggling myself with this problem for some time. We auties are asking for respect and some space for our life. There are some practical problems: economic survival and survival of a sane self for us. Not any job is good for us. Would a PR job be entrusted to an autie? Of course not. But are PR, or advertisement business, or soap opera production, the spinning of news legitimate enterprises? Are they contributing something valuable to our society? Our society is an absolute mess. People everywhere obey absurd orders, contribute to keeping in shape a structure unfair and headed for collapse. Perhaps it is already collapsed, spiritually. In 1914 (and also before) there was an articulated working (?) system to produce a surplus of wealth, buttressed by a police, a judiciary system, a machine to spin consensus through the illusion of suffrage; there were armies, armaments, mailmen ready to deliver conscription cards to millions of kids ( isn’t a 18 years boy a kid? should he be sent to die for politicians’ miscalculations, and untold interests? The Italian intervention in WW1 was decided in a clique of three or four persons at a price of 600,000 dead). And there was a war of unbelievable savagery which brought about more than 20 million dead and missing, plus the wounded and maimed. Plus the Armenian genocide. Plus all the dead caused by the Russian revolution. This happened among populations who shared common cultures, religions, who before the eruption of the war interacted peacefully among themselves.
Was there after all this horror some kind of self interrogation, of atonement, redemption? Optimism of the end of the XIX century faded, but there was no massive repentance, as there should have been, for what had happened. There was the Spanish civil war, Nazism, which was largely an offspring of WW1 , WW2, genocide again, atom bombs dropped on Japan and the construction of a nuclear overkill machinery, which is now beginning to spill out of control.

So is our request for a place in this edifice convenient as just a corporative claim? Without putting into question the foundations of our staying together, where nearly all we do for a wage is a contribution to collective madness?
What I cannot accept is the easy sliding of our fights for rights in a framework of acceptance of ordered chaos, and organized folly.

Last edited by paolo on 06 Mar 2007, 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I'm not autistic in the classic sense but I also am faced with the obligation to contribute to a society that I don't think deserves my participation. It's especially relevant right now for me because I've been in college for a year and I'm just finishing up general studies now, yet to have officially chosen a major. More than likely what I'll do is go into Psychology in the hope of being able to understand and help people who don't have the luxury of being balanced enough to help make the world such a sh***y place (or at least not to the same degree). Ideally if basic survival was the only object I would really like to be able to just be an artist or composer or something, but unfortunately I don't have the means, at least at this point.

I still say it's all the Frenchies fault - the last 200 years. It all pretty much spawned after Napoleon.


I like to view the world as an organism,, with dna and all.... each country is fighting within the organism to define the organism.... (We all did stem from a single entity according to Darwin!)

-and there is curretly a small discussion under science : and the Singularity ... theorising that technology is what will finally 'save'us -but if you ask me I'm not one for a Matrix Revolution,,, so as a planet we cold evolve the Hippie Utopian way - anly using our technolgy as an instrument the Star Trek way... or we could go the quick route end all war and suffering and just evolve to a singularity (But even in the Matric - the first wolrd was too nice - it was only when they put human into a 'real' world that people had a reason for living)

Without War there is no progress.

The human race is a mess.

I'm responsible for my own part. To facilitate that, I need to learn social skills (to prevent being scapegoated). My world is micro.

I agree with what you said, although we should add the role of The People in the founding of USA, and French Revolution, um, and that handsome Roman gladiator.

<groan of profound existential angst> I entirely agree with you Paolo and Maldoror. I often, very often, wonder why the hell I should want to participate in a culture that is at best duplicitous and distinterested, and at worst rapaciously genocidal and sadistic.

Essentially, I cannot accept all this either. The two routes through are a) to get involved and DO something within the system or b) stay outside the system and either have nothing to do with it or poke at it subversively from time to time. I've only truly done a). and found that, really, the hegemony of greed and lies is far too all-encompassing, ll-pervasive and far too weighty to be able to do anything of much real, lasting good. Most people just conform: they eat, sleep, work, buy, give birth, eat, sleep, work, buy, die - and lead lives of quiet desperation...because the horror is too much to counter, let alone allow themseves to acknowledge.

Maybe when we Aspies are much better organised and when the true sum of us is known we'll be able to band together and call some sort of halt to it all (I'm put in mind of all the utopian scifi I used to read as a teenager, where societies were run on truly human-friendly principles, where there was no poverty, war, greed, hunger...and everyone's special talents were nurtured and valued LOL).

One is reduced to 'be the change you want to see'...we can only do what we can to change ourselves and live in integrity, according to our different values and principles. I don't know, is this too passive...? Too complicit...? What else is there?

Here is the way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borg_(Star_Trek)

Last edited by TheMachine1 on 06 Mar 2007, 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

It’s difficult to find some balance. We are more than six billions. There are more men on the planet than they existed in the whole evolutionary history. This in itself should appear an absurdity. We have no influence on what happens. So why should we care? The life has nearly elapsed for many of us, at least for what concerns the significant choices we made or did not make. When I see nice teens or kids on the bus or in the streets I am sometimes worried for them, I would like to be the catcher in the rye. But I only meet them on buses and on the benches in the public gardens. What will be their life?

We should be detached and cold, blasé. It’s the only wise attitude. Yet if we look around we cannot but feel revulsion for what happens. Lucky perhaps they who have a strong real faith. I have not that, and I think of animals, trees and life in general. That may be a kind of faith and gives me, and may give some of us, some consolations.

As for history (recorded history, for real history, that is history of life - what is called “evolution”- submerges all recorded history) I am fascinated only by Alexander the Great, who, only in a few years changed the course of all Western (recorded) history. He was no less than the pupil of Aristotle, while present leaders don’t even read the newspapers. This is only an irrelevant digression.

Opt out as best you can.

Make the things you can't avoid better, if you can.

Don't use companies who lie in their advertising, or whose staff treat you badly.

Always congratulate people who are nice and/or make a difference, whether they're the Cleaner or the MD.

Fill out feedback forms for everything you can.

Vote, honestly.

Protest, if necessary.

If possible, work locally. Get to know your area and the people within it really well, so that you are truly part of a community, and have a sense of duty and of 'belonging'.

An ideal, maybe, but one I'm working towards with all my might.

It's my experience that the people out there who spout off about "making a difference," "getting up off your ass," "getting out there and doing something" assume that everyone has the capability of conforming and should make the decision not to. For me, a person who couldn't conform if he wanted to, to get out there and shatter some kind of social or political agenda, it's a great fantasy, but an impossibility. Forming some kind of movement, or a business, is something that requires use of the social system; punk music is a great example. A generation decided to detach itself from established social roles, but the social "rules" always remained, because they were actively instead of naturally making the decision. What I'm trying to say is that it's quite hopeless for an autistic to make a real social difference because in order to, they'd at first have to make it "cool" looking and dumb it down enough for people to get it, which would require the kind of perspective from which nothing interesting could ever emerge. Kind of like a paradox. The differences we make in science and art are disproportional, but it gets snatched up by the mainstream and taken for granted by the mainstream. Realistically, our best hope is becoming a large enough group that me might colonize a planet or something. Otherwise, no matter how much enthusiastic people sometimes insist, there's no hope for this f*****g race.

I agree: structures and processes count. Individuals, autistic or not, may only count in leading to disasters, like modern charismatic leaders. Humans will can only use existing tools: armies, media, exhalted crowds, perverted bureaucracies. But after a while (like in the case of Mao) "things" prevail: skyscrapers, highways, pollution, airbuses.

Rather than overthrowing the system, I've taken to changing it from within. Reward good behaviour from politicians, policemen, businessmen and civil servants - not only will it encourage them to break out of stereotype more often, it also generally confuses the hell out of them and confusion is, in itself, a catalyst for social change. This kind of thing can make a difference!

usually when an Autist of famous calibre and a taste for 'teaching' ends up causing more trouble than good...

eg. Bob Geldof - if he had of just shut up ... maybe Africa would have save itself by now - instead Africa has had too much intervention from outside influences ; it's like a tumour in the organism being attacked by the organism itself by it's own immune system... the immune system thinks its doing good, but really it just helps the tumour grow.

That's the only Autist I can think of that has 'çrossed over' to the darkside. --I think even he now realises today that he did more harm than good.

--have you ever noticed that when you piont out your observations to the public domain (your peers/fireinds/aquintances) that they usually miss-interprate and act on your interpretation (if the context spwns a visible reaction) not like you actually intended?

I don't think there is any way to escape society. Even a hermit in the woods has to feed the system by paying property taxes. Unless you are a true vagrant in the wilderness, owning nothing. But how many of us have the opportunity or wherewithal for that? How much livable and utterly secluded wilderness even remains on this earth?

There is a famous Hermit (well not that famous un less you live locally to him) that lives just outside of Wangaratta, in the State Park (Wnageratta is about 300km up the coast from Bells Beach - where Keanue Reeves went to get the srufie dude that drowns himself in the Big waves - PS that scene actually isn't bells beach , it's not even Addisons Piont - there are no pine trees around Bells it's probably a NSW south coast beach about 1000km away)

anyway back to the topic

the Hermit is famous for 'going back to nature' and having crack pot ideas about 'healing'and cancer - actually I agree with hi crack pot ideas, he propses that all cancer is nothing more than the mind wanting to evolve the human body, but the human body can't cope... if the cancer and the 'new genetic algorithm' doesn't kill the person before they repordce,, then the genetic memory is passed onto the offspirng, where in effect the child can be 'prone'to the cancer - and get's triggered when thier mind doesn't understand what the gene's actuall evoltionarily advance purpose was (didn't understand it's own genes in the womb, or in life) -akin to install/upgrading software on new hardware, that is backwards compatible, but the software isn't.

He lives alone (duh) and has built himself everything from the initial living quarters to a laundry. On the odd occasion he goes into town to get himself the suff 'he can't'live without.... eg. soap. Everyone in the town knows him and supports his want to live amongst the trees.

-I really belive he is an aspie with all the 'Jack of all trades' traits ad the sensory and antisocial traits. --Yet being like the typical aspie , a character you notice. He did mention that he was trying to get himself a 'cave woman' - so even an Aspe hermit (is their any other kind?) wants to be social,,, jsut not so much. He would rather have the partner to share his thoughts with, then the society which impose thier thoughts.

On the one hand I don't agree with just sitting down and taking all the rubbish that the world throws at you, which seems to be the conclusion of Maldoror's "all or nothing" approach. On the other hand, much as I applaud the Hermit in the woods for his efforts, I can see that this is probably too extreme for most people. But does it matter?

Do the best with what you have available. Capitalism is a structured form of anarchy in that no-one has ultimate control (despite the efforts of a few key players) - it's a system which continually adapts to the wishes of the people within it, both producers and consumers. So rather than overthrowing the system, how about shaping it through your actions as an employee, a buyer and a voter? Only spend money on things you think are genuinely worthwhile, and use every available medium to tell companies, unions, consumer groups and politicians how and why you are making these choices.

As an example, take pay rises. In my view the total amount of money available for a pay rise should be divided equally between the number of employees. Therefore, someone currently on £50,000 would receive exactly the same pay rise as someone on £5,000, let's say £235, thereby maintaining an equal gap between their respective grades in the company. The current percentage system is inherently unfair as every year it further increases the gap between the richest in the company and the poorest, as for example 4% of £50,000 is a much greater sum than 4% of £5,000. This is an insult and should be stopped, so make your feelings known.

The first year, it'll be laughed out of the room, but a few people will listen. The next year, those same people will be back, and others will listen to them. In five years, who knows?

The idea is simply to get these ideas out there, to prove to those in authority that the people aren't stupid, and sometimes the solutions they provide for us are simply not good enough. It could be subsidies for the arms trade (hello British Aerospace). It could be aid packages that are tied to orders with companies owned by the countries providing the aid (American aid to Iraq). Food that is manufactured cruelly, or which is full of fat or e-numbers, or is sold to children despite being full of sugar. Car manufacturers who sell us images of cars on open roads. Anyone who tells us that we MUST buy their product in order to attract a mate. Companies who gradually reduce the weight of the food in their packaging whilst keeping the price the same. Clothes stores who rely on third world child labour. Any firm who covers their goods in unnecessary packaging. And so on....

We make hundreds of choices every day, each of which sends a little message to those in control. Whatever you believe in, try to make your choices count. On an individual level, your decisions may not amount to very much, but they must be viewed as part of a much bigger picture. Furthermore, you will know in your heart that you are living as honestly as you can.

Atlas Shrugged

by Ayn Rand