NT trying to grasp daughter's abstract language problems

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In the past, I’ve been guilty of thinking that my daughters (ASD, 4 years old) are impaired with their ability to think in the ‘abstract’. This belief stems from the fact that both seem to only converse about things that they can see, feel, touch, at the present. If you try to talk with them about abstract things, for example, things that happened in the past or things that might happen in the future, they seem to get confused.

I think I’ve discovered something a little subtle – something a that I don’t quite understand, but something that implies that the girls are fully capable of abstract thought. That, perhaps, it's the language that we use to describe abstract things that gets in the way of them understanding what’s being asked. Once they understand, once the "get it", they seem to have full ability to think abstract concepts over - maybe even to an advanced degree.

Yesterday, I was playing around with Abigail (the more affected of the girls, btw), and for whatever reason, I decided to play a guessing game with her involving dinosaurs (one of her interests – not an obsession, but a subject that she’s fairly interested in).

I started her easy. “What dinosaur has three horns on their head”?
She replied, correctly, “A triceratops”.

“What dinosaur has short arms and big teeth?”
“A t-rex!”

Suddenly, I realized that she was actually thinking quite abstractly – she was taking my simple verbal descriptions and matching them against the mental images of all of the dinosaurs that she knew, and answering correctly. With this revelation, I challenged her a little bit.

“What dinosaur looks the most like an armadillo?”
“An Anklyasaurus!”

Her answer, again, was correct, and we’ve never made these comparisons before. In fact, I wasn’t aware that she knew what an armadillo was.

“What dinosaur has a back like a roller coaster?”
“A brontosaurus”

“What dinosaur looks like a sailboat?”
“A spinosaurus!”.

I was impressed that she was able to do this – to be able to take make some pretty abstract observations about her mental dinosaur database and quickly supply the correct answer. To me, this not only demonstrated a high level of abstract thinking, but seemed pretty darned smart for a four year old kid!

Anyway, my point isn’t to brag, it is to understand. Why can she answer these very abstract questions with seeming ease and then stumble when presented with the most basic, every day sorts of questions?

For example, DW was working with her this morning on some stuff they had been working on in language therapy. They were working on “When/Where”. DW would ask something like, “When do we eat breakfast?”, and she’d answer, “In the morning”, or something. Then when she’d ask her “Where do we eat breakfast?”, she’d say, again, “In the morning?”. When the question was repeated (tipping her off that she knew that she was wrong, I think), she’d look a little puzzled, think about it for a few seconds, and again answer incorrectly, “When we’re hungry!”.

Finally, DW would prompt her, “Where do we eat breakfast? We east breakfast in the _____”. Abigail would supply the end of the statement – “Kitchen!”.

Why, oh why, does this child appear to operate on a fairly high level for when processing something quite complicated, like matching dinosaurs (from memory) with abstract verbal descriptions, yet she gets confused when being asked a where/when question?

It seems almost like language is a barrier, and that once she understands what she’d being asked, she’s capable of a high level of abstract thought. It’s not an intelligence thing – it’s a language comprehension thing… It appears….

Can someone explain how this works from the perspective of the autistic child? What sorts of things can we do to bypass these communication/language problems (if that’s what it is), to exersize what appears to be a fully functional mind?

Squaretail,

I'll give it my best shot, although I don't know the full phisology of it (nor do I think researchers understand at this point). One thing I will say is to relax about it. I do this at 47 and I'm working, managed to get degrees and get married, so it isn't the end of the world.

I also do this with somewhat mundane things (breakfast would be a great example for me). I can cram all kinds of facts into my head, but I tend to either not register or not hold on to things that I don't care about. Now, what I am not sure about is whether that is because the wiring is just fautly or shut down (the message isn't getting to the receptor in my brain or isn't getting there completely) or if it's just that conciously I know that those are mundane facts and I want to leave space for things I care about. I've never been convinced that it is concious because it causes me quite a bit of embarassment from time to time. How it is that my brain would blip on one and not another is kind of a mystery.

If it makes you feel better, we do think abstractly. I do it all the time. Sometimes I can make giant leaps in problems to get to the answer. That's definitely abstract. In fact, I am an abstract thinker more than a rote thinker. I can understand Physics but can't do the math for example. That drives my NT mathematical-loving husband right up the wall.

One thing I read in a post by a teacher's aide that I found very accurate is that she advised the parents to show more than tell. She said she'd been taught that Autistics think more visually and by using visuals and "stories" or play acting she was able to teach much more quickly and get over these rough spots your experiencing. I'll see if I can find her post for you. Everything she had learned to do with Autistics really made sense to me and that doesn't happen often.

To the best of my knowledge, that never happened to me, but DOES to a lot of autistics and aspies. I can't speak for them, but exposure is KEY! If you NOW ask her where do you play, go to school, etc... she may figure the right answer. If she doesn't, lead her in the right answer to one, and ask her another. THEN she should get it. Maybe some autistics simply work so hard on knowing what some words mean that they forget about the rest. I'm currently studying a few languages that way. It is just easier, and one of the most involved parts, so I am not doing it the RIGHT way. BTW I DID study a lot of english that way, but I already had the basics down, and your daughters obviously don't. Maybe your daughters have the same idea. She could be led, and obviously can learn, etc... And my "technique" SHOULD work fast and is cheap and easy. Look up busans(sp?) top 100 english words, and make sure your daughters know them ALL(IN CONTEXT), and you should be SET! BTW Among them ARE WHERE WHAT WHY WHEN, etc...

BTW dinosaurs IS a common OBSESSION of kids apparantly. I don't think I had it, but one of my first books WAS on dinosaurs. That was about 40 years ago. I have seen it discussed at least TWICE in the wall street journal! One kid complained because the boyardee company confused an allosaurus with a tyranosaurus!

BTW she may know about armadillos because of the dinosaur!

Also, Zannemarie IS right. Your daughters OBVIOUSLY know the concept, etc... so they aren't stupid. Still, try out what I suggested http://www.duboislc.org/EducationWatch/ ... Words.html

If you spent 5 minutes on each, it would be 8.3 hours. Play a game over a month, or even a week, and things could work out great.

Steve

Some autistics actually claim they don't think in abstracts. I think it's strictly a language barrier. Many autistics are visual thinkers and that poses a real problem for young kids just mastering speech. My son is considered "HFA" too and had those same exact problems your daughter shows. OPen-ended questions are the tough ones and at 7 (and 1st grade) they still are. When/if he can't answer "when/where/how" questions, I start to describe what I'm asking.
Instead of, "where do we eat breakfast?"
"what room do we eat breakfast"
Instead of, "when do we eat breakfast?"
"What does the clock say when we eat breakfast?"

Squaretail,

Here's what that teacher's aide wrote to a mother who just found out her child was autistic.

Mandi,
I have been a Teachers Aide to several children diagnosed with Aspergers (the higher end of the Autism spectrum) and did a lot of research on the subject.
The good news for you is that with a lot of hard work at the beginning, many, many reach their adult years well adjusted and able to hold good jobs.
They do especially well with careers where they do not have to work in a team environment....computers, engineering etc.
Some little tips...they are very literal, (eg You smell means I like your perfume), very pedantic and changes need to be explained and, depending on the ages, practiced beforehand....they do not like surprises. They are also very visual, can see things in a picture we would not until it was pointed out to us and work well with visual prompts.
One more tip, which I discounted when I read about it, but it worked a treat....when they are upset or cannot tell you what is the problem, talk to them in the third party....draw some little stick figures with different expressions or activities and they will respond to those.
I must tell you what happened today....a young pupil came to the door of our home room this morning as said "I know you, what's your name", when I told him he told me his name and he was the first pupil I helped as a TAS when he was in Kindy....seven years later he still remembered me. He is now in mainstream high school with am Aide for 6 hours a week. He actually shook my hand....a big hurdle for him to overcome. I have been feeling good all day.


She is from Australia. I thought she was pretty smart for a T.A. going out of her way to learn all that.


I agree with what Steve said. We learned Who, What, When, Where, and How by rote, then used it in context of our lives. One thing Temple Grandin says that I fully agree with is that it was easier for us because things back then were taught by rote more than in the abstract. So, we got many of the basics and built on that. Many of us dino-Aspies have noticed that we didn't have the problems that some of the younger Aspies do and it makes me wonder if that isn't what is causing it to be more obvious for the younger generation. You could try those old fashioned teaching methods for the more basic stuff and seeing if it helps.

Dinosaurs are a huge thing for me still. When I was a kid, I learned them from the encyclopedia, then wanted the little plastic toy dinosaurs. I still go to dig sites and look at them whenever I can. What's more abstract than thinking about something that lived millions of years ago!

ZanneMarie and squaretail,

I had books that used wh words, and had decent interaction with people. Maybe THAT is why. Today, that is FAR less likely. EVERYONE needs examples. I guess aspies, and maybe auties, are just working too hard on other things, and need a bit more coaxing.

squaretail,

TRY what I said. If you have success in the first few minutes, FANTASTIC! Try to keep it going in a fun way, and do a little at a time. If it doesn't work, relax and maybe try again later, like a few months, etc... Frankly, I really think it should work. It isn't even really 100 words, because most she KNOWS, and you should be able to figure it out yourself with out even bothering her.

Steve

I'm a 41-year-old female with Asperger's, and I STILL have problems responding to "WH.." questions!! I didn't even notice what a problem these questions were for me until a few years ago when I started studying foreign languages. I found that I had the same problems in forming and answering these questions in German, French, and Spanish as well!! It's so frustrating for me to try to initiate a conversation in these languages, because I stumble around for the right word for "where, when, how" etc. and I sound totally illiterate, when in fact I'm fairly competent (when and if I can get past this "filler" type of exchange and get into an actual discussion). I think it's a combination of two things: 1) our brains stay on a constant mini-overload because we're unable to screen out all the stimuli going on around us, and we need our brainpower for more important exchanges than "where do you eat breakfast, what did you have for breakfast," etc. Reason 2) we just aren't interested in smalltalk, even at age 4, and that's exactly what questions like that are. I remember being very young and never being able to figure out why adults and other kids wanted to talk about such boring things; I was actually shocked by it. I'm sorry it this sounds too blunt, but this really may be the heart of the problem - for many of us on the spectrum, "smalltalk" takes way too much cognitive effort for too little cognitive/emotional return.

Hi squaretail.

I have a 14yo aspie who still gets confused with the "w" questions and he's had that goal on his IEP since preschool. I think this is why he does so poorly on the reading comprehension tests. Alot of the wording of test questions seem to be based on an understanding of these concepts. It seems like he gets it though if you keep refrasing the question. So I agree, I don't think it's an ability to abstract. It's all in how you ask the question.

He also fails the school eye test each year because I think he gets confused by those abstract directional words: under, above, below, right, left, etc....

Thanks for the advice so far, folks - keep it coming I'm going to try out some of your suggestions.

FWIW, the girls are constantly chattering, so I don't think language, or talking, is particularly draining or stressful for them. Perhaps "listening" or comprehension is the hard part, I don't know - they're chattering is usually about their interests, or just constant observations about the environment - that sort of thing. They do mess up the same sorts of 'filler' words when speaking, too.

I had them evaluated recently for receptive and expressive language by a speach pathologist, and they both scored within the normal range for both expressive and recessive, though the test didn't really catch the pragmatics issues. They also scored really, really high on a part of the test that consisted of them naming a picture, or giving the generic term for a group of related items (musical instruments, for example). They hit the ceiling on that part of the test, scoring several years above their chonological age, while they were below average in 'social' language - the small talk stuff, as you might guess.

The mini-overload comment does resonate. Abigail, in particular, seems to be constantly hyperfocusing on one thing or another, never really in a receptive state for chit-chat (unless she's doing the talking). Sometimes you have to call her name 2-3 or more times to get her attention. Her hyperfocus shifts rapidly from one thing to another, but she never really seems to be in tune with the people around her.

I hyperfocus, too (though not all the time like she does), and I know how advantageous it can be. I figure that there's a lot of potential in these girls if I can figure out a good way to teach them things. Their recall, memory, attention to detail, attention span, and ability to "focus" seem to be really strong, especially considering their age. It's hard to get around the language issues, because it's sometimes difficult to discern when I've said something that they've mis-interpreted (like the when/where question, above), which makes teaching them things via verbal instruction quite difficult. They must be learning at pre-school, though, as their school readiness level is nearly that of a six year old - I think they have learned a lot from educational TV - Noggin, Nick Jr., that sort of thing. They seem to really absorb preschool level concepts presented in that format.

FWIW - Their speech/language pathologist, a well known autism therapist in this area, thinks that they have Asperger's syndrome rather than autistic disorder. Even with these language problems - because they score well within normal for both expressive and receptive language on standard tests, even with these weird, pragmatics issues.

Yes, they sound like Aspergers to me, too! I don't know all the differences between AS and HFA, but I thought a major one was that HFA kids have problems talking, period. We aspies can talk up a storm from a very early age, but we have problems with pragmatics, prosody, tone, turn-taking, etc. Your daughters sound very, very much like me at that age. I wasn't diagnosed with AS until recently, at age 41, and I've done just fine in life. I've been happily married 22 years, and I held down a good insurance job for almost 20 years until I decided I needed a mental break. It's tough, because the pragmatic problems we're discussing are indicative of our biggest problem as aspies: we just can't relate easily to topics and issues that are important to NTs (and of course, vice/versa). This can cause lots of interpersonal and professional communication problems, and it's something that I'm sure every aspie must face in life. My best advice to you is to not worry too much about understanding your daughters (we can't understand NTs either) and focus on doing all you can to support their interests and passions! I'm convinced that the key to a happy life as an aspie is to develop your passions and talents to the limit. From that will come self-esteem and respect from teachers, peers, and bosses. Having parents that accept them as they are, emotionally and cognitively, is the key to them becoming happy and healthy adults.

I'll tell you one thing my teachers figured out in the 60's and 70's that really worked out well for me (and this was prior to special ed or gifted). They figured out early on that I just simply surpassed what was normal for me and I was bored with regular teaching for my age. What they did for me was accelerate me instead of trying to push me into what was "normal" for my age group. That worked really well for me and I flew through my school work to such a degree that they started asking me what I wanted to learn and developing separate classes based on those interests. I still wrote all the time in class (my special interest), but I did all my work and surpassed everything. Your daughters may actually be bored by those questions and think they are pointless.

The small talk issue is all too familiar to me. I dismissed it as a child and was pretty blunt about how stupid I thought it was. They may be going through the same thing.

Here's another trick for special interest (espeically hyperfocus which I do as well). When you want answers to those questions, ask from the perspective of the special interest. "If you want to invite the Anklyasaurus to breakfast with you, what time should he show up?" That may work. She may say, "He won't eat what I eat." LOL If that happens, say, "We're going to look at dinosaur bones at the museum after breakfast. What time would that be?" Try to get it into the context of the special interest. If you do that with everything, you'll see a marked improvement in how she engages with you.

To be honest, many times we have no clue why you guys find this mundane stuff so interesting when it's boring. We'd rather talk about the interesting stuff. That's a HUGE problem between NTs and Auties. They will probably never stop that. If you think they are learning this, I really doubt it. What they are doing is playing you to shut you up so they can go back to what they enjoy. I did that a great deal and if that happens, you will get yourself relegated to the stupid and useless category in a hurry. Then, you really won't see any interaction because they won't think you are worth it. So just becareful with that. I was bad for that, especially when I was a child. I see alot of that on here as well. Once that happens, your effectiveness is pretty much done.

The social chit-chat stuff becomes important because that's the way school is taught these days. Everything is collaborative and 'project based'. My son, in first grade, works with peers every day in completing tasks at school. They seem to think this is vitally important. I also don't want them to make themselves targets for bullies or people who woudl try to take advantage of them, so I want them to have some ability to make social conversation, if possible, so that they won't appear obviously impaired, or if they got lost, they'd have enough social and language ability to get home safely.

I'm totally happy with their special interests, though! I love dinosaurs. They also have obsessions with movie characters, and Abigail really loves bugs

I wonder if teaching them to read might help with some of this stuff? They're ready, but I'd need some sort of visual learning system, as they'd get distracted with a 'direct instruction' type format using lots of language. If they could read, they'd have another tool that they could use to explorer their interests, and some of the language pragmatics stuff might fall out as they begin to see how grammatically correct sentences are contructed in all of their various forms. They;re only four, which is pretty young to begin reading instruction, but still... might help... and my son was reading before five, though he's just getting to the point of 'reading for pleasure'.