Why do NTs so readily respect a supposed authority?
I do respect authorities, when it makes sense. For example, if they are an authority because they have demonstrated competence in their field, then it makes sense to listen to what they say and consider it.
But it seems in the neurotypical world, it doesn't matter if they have shown any competence or knowledge. As long as they have a title, they are respected; not only that, anyone without authority is not respected, no matter how right they are.
I have seen many examples of this. There were many times in school where I would correct someone, and suddenly the whole group turned on me and told me I am stupid and don't know what I'm talking about. I can't think of a single instance where I convinced them with just logic. After arguing for a while, I'd give up, and then I'd ask someone that had a title, like the teacher (even though I already knew I was correct). Then the teacher simply said, "Yes, he is correct." Now it suddenly made sense to them. "Oh, of course, I get it!" They didn't even question the teacher at all! (Nor did they apologize for calling me stupid)
One example: someone said that the word "damned" in the scriptural sense, is also the past tense of the verb "dam", as in "to dam a river". I immediately said, "No, those are two different words, with different meanings and spellings." But the ENTIRE class didn't believe me! Why? Because the person sharing this idea was misquoting an authority, who was simply comparing the meanings of the words "damn" and "dam" and using it as an analogy to demonstrate a point. I explained this to them, but they wouldn't believe me. I told them they are not etymologically related words. They still didn't believe me. I literally went up to the board and spelled the two words, and also their past tense forms. They wouldn't believe me that "dammed" was a word, they thought that the two differently-spelled words had the same past tense spelling, and to support this, one girl pulled out her smartphone ("smart"phone) and said, "It doesn't come up with a definition for 'dammed' in Google." NO, BECAUSE IT IS THE PAST TENSE, THEY DON'T PUT SEPARATE DEFINITIONS FOR EVERY CONJUGATION! PLUS, GOOGLE ISN'T RIGHT ABOUT EVERYTHING, IT IS JUST A SEARCH ENGINE!
I didn't realize how stupid the entire class could be, I thought at least one would be logical. But I finally gave up. "Mr. Smith, do the words 'damn' and 'dam' have the same spelling for past tense? And though they sound the same, are they actually etymologically related in any way?" "No, those are two completely different words. They aren't related, and both the spellings and meanings are completely different."
Class: "Wow, Mr. Smith is so smart."
...Seriously? That is EXACTLY what I said!
I do not understand this. I can understand them being slightly more inclined to believe an authority, but this is just ridiculous. I've had countless experiences like this, and every single time, they wouldn't listen to logic, I had to use an authority of some kind. I don't get how anyone can be THAT irrational unless they are actually impaired. But even at university, students who were claimed to be some of the nation's "best and brightest", would believe the silliest things if it came from an authority. This same thing happened there multiple times. WHY?
If I ever become a teacher or authority of some kind, I will punish them for this. I will tell them all sorts of ridiculous things, and then when they end up looking like a fool and get mad at me, I will just say, "Hey, it's not my fault. How could I know you'd believe something so ridiculous?"
_________________
"It has long been an axiom of mine that the little things are infinitely the most important."
- Sherlock Holmes
Welcome to the social game of typical life. The game provides a proliferation of social pyramid schemes that you can join. The game consists of climbing the social ladder by jumping through the hoops that get you to the next level of gameplay. The hoops are controlled by the authorities of the pyramid scheme that you are playing in.
Typical life is exciting. You can join as many pyramid schemes as you wish, or you may decide to start a new pyramid scheme.
The latter is a dangerous proposition. Authorities of established games will perceive you as a threat to their little empires. Some of the most powerful authorities decide over which kinds of pyramid schemes are illegal and which ones are legal.
Mr Ponzi attempted to reinvent the oldest game played by humans and other primates. He should have known better. Social pyramids are fractal structures. Smaller pyramids are parts of larger pyramids. The players of a particular game simply don't like it if someone comes along who ignores the rule of authority.
Playing the social game is also known as socialising. Schools are important institutions of socialisation. The first lesson of becoming a typical player is to submit to authority. The second lesson involves learning that the only way to move up the levels is to pretend to submit to authority, but in secret to construct a new rung on the ladder that bypasses the next level.
Playing the social game teaches you everything you ever need to know about neurotypical communication.
Thankfully the autistic spectrum is a spectrum, so that every now and then even typical humans behave in autistic ways. It this weren't the case, the social game would be the only game to play, and humans would quickly become extinct.
Last edited by jbw on 28 Oct 2014, 3:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
auntblabby
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I think it's a trust issue. They believe the person they trust the most. A teacher has been to university and is a specialist in their subject where as you are just a teenager with limited life experience. Logically if the teacher has told them many true things over time they will come to trust the teacher's judgement, they are going to trust the teacher over one of their peers.
auntblabby
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unfortunately this trusting can lead to abuse when in situations where a given person is made an "agent of authority" [Stanley Milgram et al] and themselves made an authority.
Yes. The full implications of these experimental results are only rarely talked about.
I cringe when I read simplistic claims that aspies are not any good at co-operating; as if the neurotypical notion of co-operation would be something to aspire to.
We can be good team players and collaborators, just not according to the pyramid shaped neurotypical rule book, and preferably in a team of aspies.
But it seems in the neurotypical world, it doesn't matter if they have shown any competence or knowledge. As long as they have a title, they are respected; not only that, anyone without authority is not respected, no matter how right they are.:
well not all nuerotypicals
In social psychology there is a tendency for (insert NT) people to want to fit in to in-group. Respect and obedience for those in authority is mandatory. Questioning the bona fides of those in power is acceptable but disrespecting a person's title or power is to question the authority of the group system which in turn is criticism of the group. Therefore the average NT does not want to draw attention to their percieved disobedience as it might be construed they don't fit in the group.
Here in Australia almost everyone has a blind obedience to flag and nation. It's really quite pathetic but nobody wants to sound unpatriotic, otherwise we call it being "un-Australian". And nobody wants to be socially ostracized.
I think it's understandable many autistic folk might be more prone to question authority as they i) tend to view things objectively and cross sectionally rather than organically ii) as many of our community are socially isolated there is a feeling that there is nothing to lose by disrespecting authority.
Thanks for your honesty. "Almost everyone has a blind obedience" are strong words coming from a neurotypical. I do notice this effect in Australia, but my brain still has a hard time accepting this as a fact. Only in recent years have I begun to understand the extent to which hierarchies are worshipped, and what this means for day-to-day life in neurotypical society.
By the way, I don't think that blind obedience is a characteristic that is limited to Australia. I have lived in many countries, and whilst the pyramidal objects of worship may vary from place to place, the behavioural patterns seem to be similar across cultures.
It's kind of a complicated issue really. There is a danger in just blindly following a supposed authority, but then there is a danger in not following an authority when they are actually right. The vaccine topic comes to mind. There are so many people who think that they are right to not vaccinate their children and that big pharma and educated doctors are really just trying to make money rather than help stem the tide of serious illnesses such as measles. Who is right? The educated doctor or the parents who "know" best?
People need to possess a moral compass, as well as respect authority. In the case of the vaccine, no understanding parent would not vaccinate their child and risk infecting another child. So no real conflict of interest there. It becomes more clouded though where governments, or organisations are corrupt and individuals are faced with making decisions that while respecting authority, may be immoral.
That's a very good comment.
That's only in your opinion. Your opinion is that they are not an understanding parent, but they actually do care about their child and are trying to do the best thing for them. I'm pro-vaccine, but the person who decides against the vaccine really will tell you that they've done their research and that they are right and list a load of evidence as to why they are right. It's all about theory of mind. One person interprets data differently to another person. In the vaccine scenario they are like the school kid saying they know better than the teacher. You are the dubious class mate who turns to the teacher/doctor to see if they are right.
But it seems in the neurotypical world, it doesn't matter if they have shown any competence or knowledge. As long as they have a title, they are respected; not only that, anyone without authority is not respected, no matter how right they are.
I have seen many examples of this. There were many times in school where I would correct someone, and suddenly the whole group turned on me and told me I am stupid and don't know what I'm talking about. I can't think of a single instance where I convinced them with just logic. After arguing for a while, I'd give up, and then I'd ask someone that had a title, like the teacher (even though I already knew I was correct). Then the teacher simply said, "Yes, he is correct." Now it suddenly made sense to them. "Oh, of course, I get it!" They didn't even question the teacher at all! (Nor did they apologize for calling me stupid)
One example: someone said that the word "damned" in the scriptural sense, is also the past tense of the verb "dam", as in "to dam a river". I immediately said, "No, those are two different words, with different meanings and spellings." But the ENTIRE class didn't believe me! Why? Because the person sharing this idea was misquoting an authority, who was simply comparing the meanings of the words "damn" and "dam" and using it as an analogy to demonstrate a point. I explained this to them, but they wouldn't believe me. I told them they are not etymologically related words. They still didn't believe me. I literally went up to the board and spelled the two words, and also their past tense forms. They wouldn't believe me that "dammed" was a word, they thought that the two differently-spelled words had the same past tense spelling, and to support this, one girl pulled out her smartphone ("smart"phone) and said, "It doesn't come up with a definition for 'dammed' in Google." NO, BECAUSE IT IS THE PAST TENSE, THEY DON'T PUT SEPARATE DEFINITIONS FOR EVERY CONJUGATION! PLUS, GOOGLE ISN'T RIGHT ABOUT EVERYTHING, IT IS JUST A SEARCH ENGINE!
I didn't realize how stupid the entire class could be, I thought at least one would be logical. But I finally gave up. "Mr. Smith, do the words 'damn' and 'dam' have the same spelling for past tense? And though they sound the same, are they actually etymologically related in any way?" "No, those are two completely different words. They aren't related, and both the spellings and meanings are completely different."
Class: "Wow, Mr. Smith is so smart."
...Seriously? That is EXACTLY what I said!
I do not understand this. I can understand them being slightly more inclined to believe an authority, but this is just ridiculous. I've had countless experiences like this, and every single time, they wouldn't listen to logic, I had to use an authority of some kind. I don't get how anyone can be THAT irrational unless they are actually impaired. But even at university, students who were claimed to be some of the nation's "best and brightest", would believe the silliest things if it came from an authority. This same thing happened there multiple times. WHY?
If I ever become a teacher or authority of some kind, I will punish them for this. I will tell them all sorts of ridiculous things, and then when they end up looking like a fool and get mad at me, I will just say, "Hey, it's not my fault. How could I know you'd believe something so ridiculous?"
I think the problem you are describing is more NT kids not wishing to seem inferior to their peers. When you correct them on their error they feel inferior and don't like it so they will resist information from you because they feel ashamed and a bit embarrassed that you know more than them. This will be particularly true if you are a bit of an outsider or seen to be lower down on the social hierarchy. If I cast my memory back to when I was at school (this is going back 25+ years now but I doubt things have changed much) it was the same with me. I am an NT but I was always a geeky kid at school. I was pretty low down on the social hierarchy but was also one of the smartest kids in the school. The other kids would not like it when I corrected them, particularly the ones that were deemed to be higher up on the social ladder i.e. the cool kids. Even though they were mostly dumb as f**k and could benefit from my wisdom I quickly learned to shut up. It was pointless to try and educate these morons so I didn't bother. So its not so much that NT's accept authority its just that they don't like being educated by people that they consider to be their inferiors. I guess deep down they probably know that their "popularity" at school is temporary and meaningless and that some day they will be taking orders from one of the smarter kids and hence resent the fact that they will be the drones and kids like you will probably be their boss one day! Reminding them of their intellectual inferiority makes them uncomfortable and so they will resist it.