Grammar/Written Word

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I'm curious if any WP user has difficulties with the written word.


Each post I make on WP takes considerable time, as I read and re-read the post to check grammar/structure etc (which isn't always correct - but is a best effort). Without clarity of structure and meaning, I literally cannot understand a sentence or proceed in conversation due to the potential for ambiguity.

I find it amazing that some WP users actually manage to 'read between the lines' and infer the implied meaning of a sentence through context alone.

I'm sure the WP users who have this problem understand the issue isn't one of pedantry, but one of clarifying intended meaning in order to communicate with lucidity.



The following - which will seem obvious to some - doesn't sit well with me:

Q: 'Did you have a good day today?'
A: 'Yes, I did'

In my mind, 'Yes, I did' is almost meaningless - but 'Yes, I did have a good day today' is clear, and there are no assumptions.



Here's a quick example of another active thread at present on WP (B19 this isn't an attack on you, but rather, an illustration of a particular type of thought processing) - B19's opening sentence in the 'Autism is Not an Excuse To Do Nothing' thread:

This is a piece from a New Zealand ASD woman's blog: A Stranger in Godzone: "Autism is not an excuse to do nothing".

I'm sure to many WP users the sentence makes sense: I have a number of difficulties with the sentence:

1) What is the 'this' (i.e. the first word of the first sentence) referring to?
2) Is the woman's blog called 'A stranger in Godzone: ''Autism is not an excuse to do nothing'', or is the blog simply called 'A Stranger in Godzone'?
3) What is the relevance of the blog being a 'Woman's blog'? Do you mean 'a blog written for women', or 'a blog by a woman'?

For me, the sentence illustrated above requires considerable contemplation to actually infer what is trying to be said.

In my mind I have to rewrite the sentence to

Included herein is a link to the New Zealand ASD blog 'A Stranger In Godzone'. Specifically, the piece 'Autism is not an excuse to do nothing' - then the link would be added.

I have to do this with almost every sentence I read (Again, B19, this is not a comment on your grammar etc, but a comment on the mental processing required in order to infer meaning from a sentence).


Examples by others would be appreciated.


Regards,
Sonically

Okay...some people here aren't great grammarians....but they do have much in the way of substance to convey.

If I don't understand something someone wrote, I ask them to explain. If one does makes that request in a diplomatic manner, without condescension, people respond accordingly.

If somebody wants to be condescending, that someone deserves not to be given the satisfaction of a Socratic response.

I hope I'm misreading the implied meaning in your post.....

Not what I'm addressing - I'm addressing the mental processing required in order to infer meaning from sentences, and other's own issues relating specifically to this.

I'm not addressing the grammar of every WP user - I mentioned in the original thread with my examples that there was no attack.


I'm unsure if you're saying - in an indirect manner - that my own posts are condescending - if so, simply say so directly.

Most people don't go through these linguistics processes when they write. They write from the heart. Frequently, what emanates from the "heart" is not immediately comprehensible to whoever is the "listener" or "reader."

That's the nature of literature, really...and it's possibly why I didn't care for literature until I was a certain age.

It is up to us, sometimes, to be able to discern "ambiguities." If you want a further explanation, just ask. It's the way the ball bounces in life. Everyday speech is full of ambiguities. People just don't think linguistically when they have to juggle "this and that" amid their everyday lives.

I understand you spend quite a bit of time editing your posts, to make sure there's no ambiguity in them. It's a noble effort, really.

Some other people, however, do not have to time to edit as much as you do. They might have limited time on a computer, or they might be working at the time they are posting, or there might be distracted by something in their environment, or they might be depressed and not give a rat's butt, or they just might not give a rat's butt.

I understand you have high standards, and that you work hard to maintain those high standards.

But I believe people must be flexible, rather than stuck in a linear viewpoint of things. Logic isn't the end-all.

By the way, I've read some of your ideas, and I find quite a few of them to be valid and useful.

I don't think your INTENTION is to be condescending--but people might discern condescension in what you write sometimes.

To me someone asking that question means that I go back to the point I woke up up until the moment of question to analyse if the day was "good" (I'm confused by that question), and it is hard to answer as from the moment I wake up many data entering my brain, so my answer to that question is usually "I don't know" as an answer is often expected immediately,
I have no time to go through all the moments of a day to determine the quality of the day.
The rest of your post I did not process yet, but I won't as processing capacities for today are depleted.

I forgot to mention....and this is VERY important:

There are posters whose first language is NOT English.

These posters I would give even more of the "benefit of the doubt" than posters whose first language is English.

With some frequency, people whose first language is English are (like myself) not proficient in other languages. Most of the time, people who post here whose first language is not English are more proficient in English than I am in a language other than English.

In a situation such as the one I've quoted above, if I were unsure what "Yes, I did" meant, I would assume that it referred to the most recent part of the conversation: thus "Yes, I did have a good day."
People don't often reply to direct questions with answers that seem relevant but mean (to use some examples) "Yes, I did eat 13 kittens", "Yes, I did go to the pub", "Yes, I did everyone I saw and now I have a disease".

I think I know the feeling, though it's probably not so strong in me. I often spend quite a while optimising the syntax of what I write. On a good day I allow myself a little leeway, but it's hard to resist looking for the clearest way to express an idea. I think it's always better to be crystal clear. That's why the syntax of most books is good.

I keep finding errors in the text I read, and my brain gets hung up on them. Often I can eventually guess what the author must have meant, other times it takes a bit of fathoming, and sometimes I can't fathom it at all. The problem is often just a syntax error or two. My brain's syntax correcting feature is about as useful as the auto-complete feature on a cheap mobile phone.

They taught me English to a very tight standard at school, and I became good at meeting that standard. Our English teachers generally didn't let errors go. Of course they were training us to be experts in the subject. My language was a lot less formal when communicating outside of that environment though. They actually taught us to answer questions in the way you mention - not just a simple "yes" but "yes [what the question said]." I've never been confused by a simple yes or no, because the full version can be quickly calculated from the question.

My views are mixed. I have difficulty fathoming stuff that's not extremely clear, and bad syntax is a good way of making things unclear to me. So naturally I prefer to read well-constructed prose. On the other hand, it doesn't much bother me if it's not perfectly expressed, as long as the errors aren't fatal to the intelligibility of the writing.

There are some texts that use grammar I can't fault, which are nonetheless very unclear to me. It often takes me a long time to work out why they're not clear. Sometimes the words seem to have too much meaning concentrated into them. Other times I can't work out where the author is going with a thought chain.

This is my first post replying to someone else's thread here...I hope I say nothing unintentionally offensive.

I have no problems with grammar or with understanding what others are saying--while I sometimes have issues determining whether a person is sincere or is being sarcastic, I do understand general meanings, and don't have to make my brain jump through hoops to figure out what's really being said.

Having said that...I do seem to suffer in a way from the opposite problem. That being, I'm always afraid that what I'm saying won't be understood by OTHERS, and so I have to make it as painstakingly clear as I possibly can. Which usually entails me repeating myself over and over, just in mildly different ways. And including metaphors/similes in case I'm not clear enough after enough repetitions.

The unfortunate result is I come across as terribly longwinded, and it seems like I'm trying to hammer my point home a little too hard. My lack of confidence in my own words--or rather, my lack of confidence in other people understanding them--makes me come across as blathery and tedious, and in fact, I often worry I'm just compounding the problem and making my comments even MORE difficult to understand. Who needs to drag themselves through so many words when I should just get to the point??

Case in point? The figures of speech and repetitions I've used in this very post. I realize not all with Asperger's are quite good with metaphoric speech (apologies if I'm sounding overgeneralizing or rude there, I don't intend it, I'm still learning). So on this forum I feel ESPECIALLY concerned that something I say might be misunderstood or taken the wrong way. One reason I'm tentative about posting at all.

And so instead of just typing out my thoughts and sending them out to others, I make my brain jump through hoops to try to make my point clear. Over. And over.

This is not the OP's problem, but rather seems to be on the exact opposite end--if I understand you correctly, you're trying to untangle what others are saying, whereas I'm trying to untangle what I'm saying to others. (I apologize if I misunderstood the original post.)

Either way...it's tedious, and tiresome, and frustrating, especially when otherwise I feel I'm good with words.

Knowing how agonizing it is to try to pick my words properly, I can imagine how agonizing it is to pick through others' words trying to figure them out! (And that comment is sincere.)

I have always been a very slow reader (in both my first language and English) and I think it is because of the problem described by the OP. I find it rather stressful when I come across a vague sentence that could be interpreted in more than one way. Usually if you read on, ignoring the vague sentence, the meaning of that vague sentence becomes clearer from the context of the sentences following it. But I'm very uncomfortable reading such a piece of writing. Fiction tends to be like that.

I also think that some (or maybe many) people don't really care about understanding something fully. So, they may seem to process a word/sentence very fast, but it may actually be that they simply don't fully understand it and are not even aware of the fact that they don't really understand it.

I'm sorry but I couldn't come up with an example.

Hi sonicallysensitive. I'm curious to know whether or not you would feel the same way as above if the response "Yes, I did" was replaced with simply "Yes"?

Thanks to those who replied for their thoughtful & respectful responses

Yes - and with the written word, this issue is only exacerbated


100% in sympathy with my own experiences


I wouldn't worry about it too much - if someone asks a question here on WP and I reply, I reply to the question asked - to me it's maths i.e. 'small talk' is pointless and completely unnecessary. Example - if someone were asked 'what's 2+2?', they'd say '4' - what they wouldn't say is 'well, let's be diplomatic here and not offend the other numbers'.

Which is to be commended, as it demonstrates on your behalf a high level of sensitivity to others.

Agreed on both fronts. And when someone is asked here what they mean by what they say, it almost always leads to offence - ironically, the one place I certainly didn't expect a desire for clarity and lucidity to be interpreted as a direct attack was on an autistic forum.


Yes.

Quite. And this is possibly what leads to offence being taken, as the individual - when asked what they mean by what they say, has to self-reflect - at which point they can realise they don't actually understand what they mean - with the product of the self-reflection required at this stage almost always being unnecessary defensiveness.


Yes. In certain literature the aim is to play with the technical aspects of language and deconstruct the very nature of language (i.e. Ella Minnow Pea), but such literature is the exception, and not the rule.

On this forum, since I've joined, there have been a number of conversations regarding 'becoming an author' - what stands out most to me in such threads is the lack of technical command of the English language. If an individual cannot express their thoughts with clarity - or take time to study basic grammar - I question how they can ascertain they have something to say that is of worth when they lack the necessary tools of expression and communication to convey their story to others with clarity. If I wanted to be a car mechanic, I'd need the appropriate tools. If I wanted to be an author, there are also certain tools that would be indispensable to my job (and please - any hopeful authors reading this - think objectively about what I'm saying before taking offence...)

It would appear 'work on your grammar' is not the desired response when an individual seeks opinions on their writing (ironic, given a suggestion to work on grammar is in fact a very constructive response to give).


Ironically, for those whose first language is not English, reading English adhering to the rules of grammar etc actually makes life easier - for those individuals who speak English as a second language, a large part of their study of English is/would have been devoted to grammar, given the complexity of English.

Of course, if a non-native English speaker has trouble with the language, this should be taken into consideration.

As a speaker of a second language, I always appreciate advice from native speakers with regards grammar etc.

Let me dwell on your question a little then get back to you: my quick reply is I'd still feel the same way, but let me have a think in an attempt to hopefully explain why

It could be a case of semantic satiation which I suspect could be the problem with my own loss of meaning when dwelling too long on a word, question or sentence. Rereading what I just wrote makes me want to rearrange it, and now I've started to check the dictionary for better suited synonyms. I just checked 'synonyme,' but no better alternative turned up, and now I've started to Google parts of what I've written to see if the grammar corresponds with common usage. The last sentence doesn't sound right. Can you relate to what I just wrote? I have to stop now before it gets out of hand.

Asking that question means I would have to rethink the day and as I have learnt many people will only ask if you have had a good day out of cursory politeness. I return the 'politeness' by keeping the answer short and say, "Yes, thank you".

I no longer assume that most people are actually in the slightest interested when asking that question and when I'm not in the mood to live up to social expectations my answer could vary from "Could've been better" to "Same s**t different day"



English is not my native language and my mother tongue is not a written language.
I learnt to read between the lines with a lot of help from the people in my environment at the time. Many of whom weren't native English speakers themselves and the ones that were were part of an English-speaking sub-culture. (I was living in Netherlands at the time). After I moved to the UK I devoured newspapers and that led to reading dictionaries and eventually i discovered Thesaurus. And then I learn pedantic is synonym with all these...


And then I realised they were not the kind of description I would like to call myself and it sort of went from there...

I can still be very pedantic if I let myself. I know I can get on my partners nerves at times so try to control my pedanticness but if pushed to far I usually turn to sarcasm.
When dealing with authority I have no mercy though and take pleasure in pointing out the incosistencies in their writing if I come accross any.



It's painfully time-consuming to reply to any post more than a cursory few words. Think this lot took over an hour easily

Q: Did you have a good day?

A: Yes I did


Yes, it's ambiguous if you think about it.

However, it is well known that the questioner was asking about the "goodness" of the day in a general sense. The character of the day IN SUM, OVER ALL, in consideration of all which occurred during that day.

The person who answered assessed the character of the day, overall, all decided, in sum, that he/she had " good day." If he/she would have said, "No, I didn't," then one should discern that the answerer DID NOT have a good day.

This is language in the everyday world.