Why Cohen's "extreme male brain" theory is wrong

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Decadeology
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08 Jan 2016, 1:27 pm

The most popular theory of autism seems to be the "extreme male brain" theory. Now I think this theory is just wrong on so many levels.

First of all, the idea of a "male" and "female" brain type is starting to become dated as evidence stacks against the idea that the brain is gendered in consistent and predictable ways. Speaking of "male systemizing" and "female empathizing" is more Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus than it is based on evidence.

Second, it seems like the concept of the extreme male brain is based on two things that NTs misunderstand. First of all is the idea that autistic aggression is similar to sociopathic and competitive neurotypical aggression. Autistic aggression during meltdowns is an act of self defense and fight or flight. It's not voluntary nor is it motivated by competition, so applying a model of machismo makes no sense. I'd also make the case that men aren't really more aggressive than women, they're just physically larger and get into more situations where violence is tempting or lucrative rather than risky compared to women.

The other things NTs don't get is the idea that autistics are all systemizers and lack empathy. People with Aspergers are actually not particularly good at math and tend to excel more at other subjects.

The thing that upsets me about the male brain theory is how not only is it misrepresenting autism so grossly, it encourages a paradigm that equates autism with machismo, sociopathy and patriarchy - something that couldn't be any further from the truth. People with autism are generally non-competitive, very emotional and are treated badly because we struggle to understand and fit the gender roles people want us to.

If anything we have more in common with NT women than NT men - we're more prone to depression, chronic pain, anxiety and sensory sensitivity, all things that weigh down more heavily on women. The interests of Aspie males are also often more stereotypically feminine - we tend to love animals, fan fiction, anime, talking more than just "doing" things with our friends, we tend to enjoy crafts more than sports, etc. Of course I'm generalizing, but if anything men on the spectrum seem to be treated badly for seeming effeminate and childlike to NTs, even though really we're just being real.

Autists suffer under the patriarchy and capitalism, a system that values physical strength and the ability to make money for the economy above people's inherent value as a human being. It's a shame that feminists and aspie men tend to hate each other because we are both being persecuted under the same system.


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Nebogipfel
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08 Jan 2016, 2:26 pm

Discoveries made in psychology and neuroscience enable new techniques in mind control.



Last edited by Nebogipfel on 08 Jan 2016, 2:58 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Lukeda420
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08 Jan 2016, 2:43 pm

Decadeology wrote:
The most popular theory of autism seems to be the "extreme male brain" theory. Now I think this theory is just wrong on so many levels.

First of all, the idea of a "male" and "female" brain type is starting to become dated as evidence stacks against the idea that the brain is gendered in consistent and predictable ways. Speaking of "male systemizing" and "female empathizing" is more Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus than it is based on evidence.

Second, it seems like the concept of the extreme male brain is based on two things that NTs misunderstand. First of all is the idea that autistic aggression is similar to sociopathic and competitive neurotypical aggression. Autistic aggression during meltdowns is an act of self defense and fight or flight. It's not voluntary nor is it motivated by competition, so applying a model of machismo makes no sense. I'd also make the case that men aren't really more aggressive than women, they're just physically larger and get into more situations where violence is tempting or lucrative rather than risky compared to women.

The other things NTs don't get is the idea that autistics are all systemizers and lack empathy. People with Aspergers are actually not particularly good at math and tend to excel more at other subjects.

The thing that upsets me about the male brain theory is how not only is it misrepresenting autism so grossly, it encourages a paradigm that equates autism with machismo, sociopathy and patriarchy - something that couldn't be any further from the truth. People with autism are generally non-competitive, very emotional and are treated badly because we struggle to understand and fit the gender roles people want us to.

If anything we have more in common with NT women than NT men - we're more prone to depression, chronic pain, anxiety and sensory sensitivity, all things that weigh down more heavily on women. The interests of Aspie males are also often more stereotypically feminine - we tend to love animals, fan fiction, anime, talking more than just "doing" things with our friends, we tend to enjoy crafts more than sports, etc. Of course I'm generalizing, but if anything men on the spectrum seem to be treated badly for seeming effeminate and childlike to NTs, even though really we're just being real.

Autists suffer under the patriarchy and capitalism, a system that values physical strength and the ability to make money for the economy above people's inherent value as a human being. It's a shame that feminists and aspie men tend to hate each other because we are both being persecuted under the same system.


Yeah, that theory has bothered me for the same reasons you mentioned. I'm amazed at how much traction this theory has gotten considering how little sense it makes.

There was a theory I heard that made a lot more sense to me and that was that autists tend to have a harder time regulating stimulation. We seem to react stronger to sensory input. I think that explains why sensory overload so often leads to meltdowns and panic attacks. There's more to it but that's about what I remember off hand.



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08 Jan 2016, 3:28 pm

Lukeda420 wrote:

Yeah, that theory has bothered me for the same reasons you mentioned. I'm amazed at how much traction this theory has gotten considering how little sense it makes.

There was a theory I heard that made a lot more sense to me and that was that autists tend to have a harder time regulating stimulation. We seem to react stronger to sensory input. I think that explains why sensory overload so often leads to meltdowns and panic attacks. There's more to it but that's about what I remember off hand.


I think it's popular because the media wants to push the "autists are criminally minded monsters" meme and the public associates extreme "maleness" with sociopathy and violence. It seems like the EMB theory is trying to create a moral hierarchy with NT women being the most pure, then NT men, than aspies at the bottom.

I think since the early '90s the portrayal of women in the West has been more positive than the portrayal of men due to the shift towards a service economy. What's interesting is the Extreme Male Brain theory is really pick and choose with the empathize-systemize paradigm, which isn't even an accurate way to think of autism.

I could just as easily say that autists' heightened sensitivity to stimuli and tendency towards depression and anxiety means they have an extremely female brain, but I don't think you can make such broad generalizations about sex and the brain. I'm not saying there aren't sex-linked effects involved in the brain's development, but the evidence shows there's lots of overlap and some studies suggest men and women aren't reliably that different in terms of brain structure in easily predictable ways. You can't tell if a brain is male or female just by looking at one.


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08 Jan 2016, 3:43 pm

Image

Finally someone put this into words. I agree on all levels.



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08 Jan 2016, 5:48 pm

It is the Aspie male nerd/geek stereotype theory. I going to go against the near unanimous opinion here because I think it describes a subgroup of autistics.


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08 Jan 2016, 6:18 pm

Perhaps there are more forms of autism than is realized, and different types are being lumped together and assumed to have the same characteristics.

It could be that the extreme male brain theory only describes one form which has gotten a lot of attention.

I tend to systematize, I think math is easy (although not particularly interesting), I like science, I have empathy, am very emotional. I don't really fit into any category myself.



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08 Jan 2016, 6:51 pm

The "autisms" versus "one autism" battle is being won, most definitely, by the "autisms."



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08 Jan 2016, 7:09 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
The "autisms" versus "one autism" battle is being won, most definitely, by the "autisms."


I will be very interested to see what they come up with in the future. I know that autism is still not really understood.

I believe that ASD runs in my father's side of the family, but no one has been diagnosed. The ones I suspect have/had it are/were all high-functioning, extremely intelligent, and eccentric. But I wouldn't say they were stereotypical cases. Personality traits: interests in math, science, computers, machines; difficult to get along with; good sense of humor; hoarding tendencies/disorganization. No sensory issues that I'm aware of. Perhaps they are all BAP.



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08 Jan 2016, 7:29 pm

I don't know the specifics of the male/female brain, but from an anthropological standpoint, it makes sense.

Imagine Neanderthal life like this - men hunted and females stayed in the village to raise the young.

Then here comes the solitary forager hypothesis which attempts to explain Autism as being the consequence of heightened awareness, an adaptation more suited to scouting than socializing.

It would take a male, or larger and stronger being, to survive the forest by himself because there are so many dangers. Now, here comes the traits:
1. Systemizing - really nothing more than stacking up food and logs for the winter.
2. Visual/auditory sensitivity and heightened acuity - necessary for detection of more far off dangers.
3. Meltdowns - aggressive survival instinct, needed to scare off predators.
4. Extreme curiosity, deep focus - method of survival in scouting for edibles, determining where was safe, etc.
5. Black & white thinking - consequence of a super-alert brain being helpful in quickly determining friend or foe, Modern studies have even shown heightened brain activity in the fight or flight/amygdala/limbic system of autists as compared to NT's.
6. Poor social skills and being non-verbal - no one to talk to out in the forest anyway. These skills are diminutive because they weren't necessary.

The solitary forager was better adapted for survival than his social brothers, a "turned up" male brain, if you will.
http://www.care2.com/causes/the-autism- ... hesis.html
http://www.washington.edu/news/2009/03/ ... in-autism/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22947969



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08 Jan 2016, 7:42 pm

Extrapolation based on bad data.

Females are underdiagnosed, so it appears that autism is predominately found in males. You then extrapolate that misinformation.



Dennis Prichard
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08 Jan 2016, 11:30 pm

Could it be that women are more undiagnosed because they are raised to better understand and articulate emotions.

I'm very proficient at articulating emotion and I believe that may be why my autism went undiagnosed.


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09 Jan 2016, 12:01 am

redrobin62 wrote:
I don't know the specifics of the male/female brain, but from an anthropological standpoint, it makes sense.

Imagine Neanderthal life like this - men hunted and females stayed in the village to raise the young.

Then here comes the solitary forager hypothesis which attempts to explain Autism as being the consequence of heightened awareness, an adaptation more suited to scouting than socializing.

It would take a male, or larger and stronger being, to survive the forest by himself because there are so many dangers. Now, here comes the traits:
1. Systemizing - really nothing more than stacking up food and logs for the winter.
2. Visual/auditory sensitivity and heightened acuity - necessary for detection of more far off dangers.
3. Meltdowns - aggressive survival instinct, needed to scare off predators.
4. Extreme curiosity, deep focus - method of survival in scouting for edibles, determining where was safe, etc.
5. Black & white thinking - consequence of a super-alert brain being helpful in quickly determining friend or foe, Modern studies have even shown heightened brain activity in the fight or flight/amygdala/limbic system of autists as compared to NT's.
6. Poor social skills and being non-verbal - no one to talk to out in the forest anyway. These skills are diminutive because they weren't necessary.

The solitary forager was better adapted for survival than his social brothers, a "turned up" male brain, if you will.
http://www.care2.com/causes/the-autism- ... hesis.html
http://www.washington.edu/news/2009/03/ ... in-autism/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22947969



The problem I have with the solitary forger hypothesis is most people with autism (at least Aspergers, which is considered the most "male" form of autism) want to have social relationships, they just struggle with it.


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09 Jan 2016, 9:43 am

Dennis Prichard wrote:
Could it be that women are more undiagnosed because they are raised to better understand and articulate emotions.

I'm very proficient at articulating emotion and I believe that may be why my autism went undiagnosed.

Ditto. We didn't even consider it as a possibility for me until I was a teenager and my mom noticed similarities in the behavior of an autistic character on tv and me.

And yet, my ADHD, something else that is probably underdiagnosed in girls and probably over diagnosed in boys, was caught when I was in kindergarten. Amazing, isn't it?


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09 Jan 2016, 9:47 am

Lukeda420 wrote:
Decadeology wrote:
The most popular theory of autism seems to be the "extreme male brain" theory. Now I think this theory is just wrong on so many levels....


Yeah, that theory has bothered me for the same reasons you mentioned. I'm amazed at how much traction this theory has gotten considering how little sense it makes.

There was a theory I heard that made a lot more sense to me and that was that autists tend to have a harder time regulating stimulation. We seem to react stronger to sensory input. I think that explains why sensory overload so often leads to meltdowns and panic attacks. There's more to it but that's about what I remember off hand.

Yeah, I find this conceptualization more productive and more accurate than the male/female brain concept.

I admit I haven't read Cohen in the original, something I ought to do if I'm going to debate this. I guess it hasn't been a high priority for me.

Edited to add: More and more female aspies are coming out of the woodwork which in itself contradicts the extreme male brain concept. We've been here all along, suffering, but trying to make a life.


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09 Jan 2016, 9:59 am

Indeed the OP jibes with me that NTs have a vehement, almost reflex aversion to the idea that every human being has inherent self-worth and deserves basic respect.