Music staying in tempo with a group problem

Post Reply New Topic

Hi all

I am a music teacher in a school. I have a remarkable boy AP. (15 years) who is like an absolute machine (literally) at learning the piano (playing for 3-4 years now) His expression is not great, he is a bit robotic in his playing, but his focus, perseverance and manual dexterity are superb.

However as part of his music assessment he has been working with small pop bands for the last year and cannot seem to stay in time with the group.
I am at my wits end. He is by far the most able solo musician in the group, but he can`t even seem to count.
I have simplified his part so he is basically playing 1,2,3,4 on chords but still he drifts out of time.

This boy is also very disorganised in his schoolwork commonly missing deadlines; he has one friend only, cannot seem to focus in class, waddles with a very ungainly flat footed gait, (I may get him to try to dance, to check his gross body coordination area) His attention is very poor - he forgets things instantly. (However he is a smart boy and his skill to improvise quick guesses/answers/replies to a question..... which are often wrong through inattention,but he tries to bluff it, this is a kind of skill)

Anyway AP is in his final year and becoming increasingly stressed out with the demands at school. I have asked the Special Educational Needs coordinator to `examine` him over a year ago. But because AP is no trouble in class, he mostly melts into the background I am not sure any other teachers have noticed his problems.... he may have `slipped through the net`

I am NOT an expert but have a real suspicion that he may have some ASD or even Aspergers which is passing unnoticed by others

However my specific Q. is: Has anyone else ever heard of, or experienced an excellent solo musician who cannot play in time with a group?

I am a musician who has no problem with rhythm or timing. Some aspies are great at music some not so good, but AP is great at solo piano but rubbish in a group! Could this illuminate some cognitive problem?
Any thoughts advice ideas at all?

I have not had a student who was, individually, and excellent student who, at the same time, could not play in time with the group.

At times, though, I had problems myself. In my situation, it only happened when I was soloing in the jazz band. I completely lost track of where I was, even turned the time around. Sometimes I still have problems knowing where we are in the chord progression of a tune before getting ready to turn around to the beginning or when my solo is supposed to end.

Can your student play with a metronome? I finally figured it out but when I was in high school, I was still having trouble. I knew when I was off, but had trouble figuring out if I was going too fast or too slow to cause it to be off. It almost seemed like the beats on the metronome were "warped", although they obviously weren't.

I don't know what causes this, but trying to focus on what is happening outside AND inside at the same time is very hard.

What have you tried with this student? I imagine he's playing in some kind of jazz or rock band on the piano? How is the group set up (what instrument is he next to?) Have you tried having him play alone with just one other rhythm section instrument at a time so he can hear the cues more distinctly, like when the drummer plays the bass drum or snare, etc.? Or maybe he needs to memorize the bass line? Have you had him try clapping his own rhythm along without playing?

More importantly, is he *aware* that he is off? I knew I was off, and frustrated about it. I wanted to fix it but didn't know how. However, most of my students (who are not good musicians) have no clue they are off in the group and don't really care. If one can't hear that one is off, that's a bad sign.

What about having him play Heart & Soul with someone? I know it's so boring and overdone...but I think it serves a wonderful purpose, especially with the two people trading parts playing the bass and melody. The chord changes are obvious and it is easy to "start over" when the progression comes to the top again. It is also incredibly easy to improvise over when one gets bored with the melody. One can also make up different rhythms with the chords easily. So, it could provide a lot of practice in these skills without the onslaught of sound coming from the full group.

Thanks nerdygirl.

No he does not spot he is out and may continue throughout the song out of time!
Its like he is not even listening to the group at all.

I have watched him counting the beats really hard 1,2,3,4 as he plays and he still drifts off while counting, its almost like he doesn`t get that he needs to actually listen to the music not just do the music if you get me.
Maybe thats it?... when solo he can just do the music almost like a physical pattern. He never seems to show any enjoyment either which is weird.
I have clapped along, counted with him metronomed him etc... he might get it for a minute but a minute later he is way out again. its like he can`t even hear where the beat falls... its quite weird.

I often get this like with other less musical kids and like yourself even do it myself now and again, but this is different.

James Brown had his own ideas about timing that most people still don't understand.

I personally found it difficult to play with other people when I was younger so I began to write and direct everyone to what felt right to me. I eventually grew tired of this and got into programing sequencers with my original math concepts. I had much more fun shaping sound with synthesizers and making dense, fractal-like timing shapes to play with eachother. I love what I make and it violates most common ideas of what music should be.

The student seems talented. Maybe following someone else's program is not the best way to go with everybody. Does he have an interest in writing his own music, maybe even outside the laws of convention?

In my experience, I can play/sing music. Piano, guitar... but the moment I start trying to count, instead of either going off of the learned observation when the music should be timed (meaning I listen to other people play it and then sort of construct how I want to do it).. I completely lose my ability to keep 'time', I am "beat deaf"..

I also have issues with being visual and audial at the same time, if I close my eyes sometimes that can help (I have theorized that too much visual stimuli messes with my body's reaction time). So it could be as simple as closing his eyes and only hearing instead of trying to get himself to see what notes are essentially next. Which means he will need to learn a piece of music extensively and learn where the notes are on his instrument by touch alone perhaps..

Solo is easier, but in a group setting.. no thank you. In school we use to be required to do concerts for holidays and.. I'd always fall out of time/ruin them. I'd sing at the wrong times, play my instrument at the wrong time. Eventually I refused to do it, because I didn't like it and the jeering I got from my classmates. I often didn't realize I did it until they were already done with a line and I wasn't.

He most likely does have enjoyment in it, but to him it could be that it isn't about making the music. It could be the essentially mathematical sequence, or the fact that learned songs bring someone close to him a type of enjoyment. You should just ask him. Just because there is no outward expression doesn't mean anything. He's probably just concentrating.

Unfortunately I have to get him through his exam assessments. The closed eyes idea is interesting but would be a bit difficult.

I have a feeling he has aspergers or at least facets of it.

ye James Brown .. the Man!... awesome. changed music.
I did a lot of sequencing in the 90s-2000s you are right its a great way to do music break all the rules you want listen to all that wonderful dubstep stuff.
However I am back in a band again I miss the expression and buzz.

Wow, this sounds tough, especially when it seems you do not have enough time to fix it.

Do you have time to play any group rhythm games? There's a book called Rhythm Games that is good, and I've done a few things before involving chanting and clicking rhythm sticks with partners, etc. How about call and response rhythm echoing? Say you clap in a 4/4 pattern and the class has to clap it back starting on the next one. This can also be done "tossing" the rhythm to individual students as well. You could also have kids make up their own rhythms to toss back and forth. This would help with the listening without singling him out too much, and also with the mind-body connection which is so important for rhythm. You wouldn't have to do these for very long, 5 minutes or less at the beginning of class as a kind of warm-up.

I like your idea of trying to get him to dance. I also understand the time crunch!

Hmmn, no, and this might seem kind of random but this is what came to mind when I read your post. In this documentary, Derek Paravicini and Rex Lewis-Clack prepare to do a performance together. It starts about 28 minutes into the video. Rex isn't used to playing with someone else and he keeps putting his hands over his ears.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbqjxmTNivQ

Thanks Dianthus, will check the vid out when I get a min..
P.

You're welcome Peejay. I don't know if you will find it helpful, but I thought it might trigger an idea.

Is it possible your student has an auditory processing disorder? or an actual hearing problem?

I played clarinet in school (symphonic band and marching band) and I also played piano in jazz band. I always liked playing in groups better than playing solo, so I signed up for everything I could join. I never had any problems staying with the group's tempo (well, unless they were playing a tempo I thought was wrong, lol).

However, I remember that playing piano with a band was VERY different from playing clarinet. Playing clarinet, I was first chair so I was sitting at the front of the group. The sounds of all the other instruments were pretty much coming right at me. I could hear all the other instrument sections, but I could hear my own instrument distinct from anyone else's too. It felt like I was part of the group, same as all the others.

But playing piano was totally different. I felt like I was stuck off to the side totally doing my own thing and not really part of the group at all. Sometimes, depending on the size of the group and the acoustics in the room, the piano stuck out like a sore thumb and everything else just sounded like mush. Other times the group drowned out the piano so I could barely hear it.

Plus, you know how things can get echoey in a large room? It echoes the beat, and the more sensitive you are to it, the more it can throw you off. And again this sounds totally sitting off to the side of a group, vs. sitting in the front/middle.

I have auditory processing problems...and I think it's because my brain is wired for music. I mean I believe the same thing that makes it hard for me to understand what people are saying, is also what makes my hearing really sensitive for music. It's like I can hear the melody and cadence in people's voices more than I can hear the words, if that makes sense.

And the same sensitivity that allows me to really appreciate all the distinct sounds in an orchestra or choir, also makes it a misery for me to be in a noisy, crowded place like a restaurant or shopping mall...places that have a lot of echo. Sometimes playing in a large bandroom could feel that way too...the louder the group got, the more the sound bounced off the walls and produced extra beats.

Auditory overwhelm is disorienting and can be downright painful. It makes you just want to block it all out.

Also I can really space out when I'm concentrating on something, to the point that I don't really hear anything going on around me. I know the sounds are there, but I just don't focus on it and it all blurs together.


Who sets the beat for the group? Do you conduct?

I agree.

I have this problem. I was the lead guitar in a band a few years ago and this was by far my biggest problem. I can't seem to keep time very well. I can't count when I play and if I try to sing or even talk I lose the rhythm.

One more though...it's one thing to not be able to hear where the beat is. Something else entirely though if he can't feel it.

I have a similar problem to your student. I can't count or "feel" a beat unless that's all I'm focused on. If I focus on keeping time I miss notes, can't hear intonation, etc. It's a symptom of hyper focus for myself, only one thing can hold my attention at a time, I can't multitask. That's why I switched to music theory and composition, those made absolute sense to me the moment I was introduced to them. I know your post was time sensitive about an exam, but some people just aren't built for live performance, and he may be one of them. When I'm listening with a critical ear one thing that helps is looking at the ground, if I'm looking at other people, performing or otherwise, I lose track of what I'm hearing.

Yeh, I should really try to find this out... I dont think he feels it.

Auditory overwhelm as you call it (great name!) is something I suffer from (a lot of Aspies complain of similar), I cannot filter conversations in a noisy room or the pub and it can become a tiny bit bewildering at times.

I can spot the tiniest sound too I hear an earth hum or will spot a plane flying in minutes before anyone else, a blessing and a curse!


p.s. Aristophanes: he actually performs well solo ... thats the curiosity.
(and shows no absolutely nerves too??.... that can be quite an aspie trait for some )

I played piano and keyboards for bands for years and I have AS. I did tend to rush if I wasn't careful (mostly nerves) but I could usually cue off what others were playing or singing. I also played auxilliary percussion (tambourine, maracas, etc.) and sang back-up vox. It was definitely hard for me to learn those things but I eventually got the knack through constant practice.

I wonder if taking drum lessons might help him? He could learn some basic rhythms and get an idea of the drummer's perspective. Also, you might record him playing and let him listen. It might be easier for him to hear what he's doing incorrectly when he's not playing. One of the best ways I learned to play with a band was sitting down with my records and playing along with my favorite groups. I would do that for hours a day and it really prepared me for playing live.

good idea re drums.
thanks