T.O.M

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I know I have seen this in a lot of posts lately, although I don't think it has had its own post.

personally I know that I have developed T.O.M. to an "adult" or "near adult" level. Although I am sure it has taken me a little longer to get there. I know I would pass the Sally / Anne test! However, I know that I am driven NUTS by people who share radically different beliefs. I know that they do, I know that it is ok that they do (at least, I know "rationally" that it is ok) I can predict their reaction to something that happens, based on my understanding of their beliefs. That said, IT DRIVES ME NUTS! and I have a hard time being friends with them long terms.

I have aquired the social skills to not tell them that "they are wrong" or berate them, or call them out for being "stupid". I smile and nod and go "oh really". But long term, it creates such a wedge, I just can't stand being around them.

I know my son would have failed the Sally Anne test, probably right up to around 8 or 9 years old. He was recently assigned a project in school, he KNEW I was going to have issue with. (so he is developing Sally and Anne, knowing what the assignment asked for, knowing I would not like it). But still, he seems to have a hard time relating the idea that dogs or cats don't think like people! Does this sound like a problem with "Theory of Mind?"
I find myself constantly saying, "The dog does not think that way". And arguing with him over it. *sigh*.

Similar thing with his younger brother and sister, he just does not "get" that 2 and 4 year olds, do things differently and that is ok.

When he was 4, he made "friends" with wasps in a nest by our front porch. Oneday 2 stung him, and he just could not undestand "why" they would do that to him!

Does this personification of animals and lack of understanding / empathy with his younger brothers and sisters sound like problems with "theory of mind?".

When I was a child I considered my cats to be my friends, to the exclusion of other children. However I grew up an only child in a neighborhood with no other children, so it's hard to know if the exclusion of other children was something I wanted or not.

I still have a lot of trouble with thinking other viewpoints are stupid, and I think it's largely because I have trouble with the idea that other people really are DIFFERENT than me. I usually just figure that they haven't yet learned some things that I have, or they'd obviously come to the same conclusion as I did. Which is probably true in a few cases, but it's still a very ego-centric view.

Steve, dogs don't think like NT people. I had to explain the cultural difference between dogs and people to my son the other day. I'm not sure he gets it. The other night The Dog ate Pop's snack off the table. I had to explain the difference between "Bad Dog, go outside!" and "He's a jerk, don't feed him tomorrow!"

I know they have feelings!

I just mean that my son totally "personifies" a cat or a dog. He will surmise that they understand english, and follow our conversations, and "think" exactly like we do regarding events that are occuring. He tries to "explain to the dog, "why" it can't jump up on me, like "Honey, don't jump up on me, you know that hurts me, see the cut I have on my leg? You are too big"... and then tells me "mom, the dog is not listening to me, she won't get down". At no point, has he actually "pushed" or indicated to the dog through gestures, that she needs to get down!

That is what I mean, but he thinks the dog "thinks" like he does!

I don't mean to be rude, but I never knew an Aspie that cared much for the 'theory of mind' idea. I think that is more an insight as to how NTs think than how Aspies don't think.


Merle

Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 12:46 pm Post subject:

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I know they have feelings!

I just mean that my son totally "personifies" a cat or a dog. He will surmise that they understand english, and follow our conversations, and "think" exactly like we do regarding events that are occuring. He tries to "explain to the dog, "why" it can't jump up on me, like "Honey, don't jump up on me, you know that hurts me, see the cut I have on my leg? You are too big"... and then tells me "mom, the dog is not listening to me, she won't get down". At no point, has he actually "pushed" or indicated to the dog through gestures, that she needs to get down!

That is what I mean, but he thinks the dog "thinks" like he does!




Does it matter? Really, NT children imagine having dragons as pets should we get stressed over explaining that dragons are pretend? Whatever floats your boat.

Personally, I find it very interesting, although I seem to be obsessing about AS lately, (if you could not tell! )

With me though, it is important, as it both defines what the As person is or is not, and because my son is in school. In Ontario, a 12 year old has to answer a lot of "comprehension questions" that relate to "feelings" and TOM. If they don't understand it, it is thought that they do not "comprehend" what they are reading (which is true, he does not "get it".) The problem comes in, when they say his reading level is a grade 4, and he is 12 years old. maybe this is true, maybe it isn't. They say it is the same for non fictional work too, however the examples they always give me, seem to discuss "relationships and TOM".

It is frustrating when you see your son failing misserably at something for years on end, and you just can't put your finger on "why". All this info about TOM makes sense, it puts my universe back into "order". from which, I can ask for certain accomidiations for him. These are my obsessions, my children and their needs, understanding ASD's, and pinecones. Sometimes I care a lot about my flowers, but they get back burnered for my other "interests". The last couple of days I nearly let all my plants die (1100+ seedlings) because I was so stressed over my sons broken arm and school.

I may think like a human, but that doesn't mean I know greek. Yeah, dogs don't understand english. It is hard enough for ME to understand a new language, and dogs would certainly have a harder time. They have a far smaller and simpler brain, and at least as hard a time learning. I don't consider that thinking, but knowledge of a language. Do you KNOW he believes that?

Steve

On one level, I know he knows, but on another, I know he does not know. Becuase he will get very angry with the dog and tell it, "I just told you not to do that!"

It isn't just "language". For example, he broke his arm. And the dog got in his way this weekend, and he had a near meltdown, yelling at the dog, "can't you see I broke my arm! you should know that you can't lay down on my bed!"

That is what I mean, he expects the dog to evaluate a situation and apply logic, based on how "he" would react with another person. He expects the dog to behave and think like a human!