Why does everyone keep finding Aspies everywhere?

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dontwanttoknow
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25 Apr 2007, 12:45 am

I'm probably going to get kicked out of here for this, but why does everyone keep coming up with Aspies everywhere? It's like finding Commies in the 1950's or something, only it's supposed to be good. I'm getting so sick of having to think this one or that one is AS--I can't just watch a movie or TV shsow or read a book anymore because someone might be Aspie and I have to recognize it. I'm so sick o f this and wish I'd never heard of AS. It's ruined my life. I had to quit the job I had before bcause all I did was worry about if someone misunderstood me it meant I have AS. I ran out of money and had to take a job where the owner of the company is hard to get along with and I'm afraid of him and can't do my job properly, plus they keep shoving me into a backup receptionist job I can't handle. If I hadn't thought I had AS and no one would hire me I wouldn't have takne the first job that was offered to me--I was so shocked that anyone would hire me if I have no social skills.

I can't get diagnosed with AS and I still keep wanting to go to doctors to find out if I have it or not because I don't really want to beleive I have it because if I do have it I have only the bad traits, not the good ones. Now I can't even relax with a book or movie for fear there will be na Aspie in it that I never realized before, and if I don't think they are i'm in denial. Plus I'm probably in denial about being an Aspie myself even though doctors won't diagnose me. But if I go to a GP about a physical problem and I'm anxious or uncommunicative, that person will probably tell me I'm AS and in denial.

I'm so sick of AS and possible denial. What if someone is AS and doesn't want to admit it? Does that make them a bad person?

I feel like it's a witch hunt for Aspies or something. I know most people in here think AS is good, but believe me, not everyone thinks it's a good thing and maybe these actors or whatever wouldn't like to be classifed as having an autistic spectrum condition, ever think of that????????



RedMage
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25 Apr 2007, 12:50 am

I don't think AS is good...



SamuraiSaxen
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25 Apr 2007, 12:56 am

AS has its good and bad parts. Sometimes I'm proud of having AS, and sometimes I get pissed off.



willem
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25 Apr 2007, 12:56 am

Everyone's an Aspie. Most people just aren't very good at it.


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RedMage
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25 Apr 2007, 12:59 am

willem wrote:
Everyone's an Aspie. Most people just aren't very good at it.


That's not true. My family aren't Aspies.



Grimbling
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25 Apr 2007, 1:22 am

I'm sorry, Dontwanttoknow, my attention span's not good today and I think I've missed the point - you say you're concerned that you're having trouble finding a good job because of your Aspergers, but then you said you can't get diagnosed?

It sounds like, for your peace of mind if nothing else, it would be best if you did see a doctor, and get a diagnosis. If you don't have Asperger's, there must be some reason you feel the way you do.



TheMachine1
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25 Apr 2007, 1:28 am

Not sure I follow everything the OP was trying to say. But his first point of us finding aspies everywhere reminded me of this:

http://www.scpnet.com/paper2_2.htm

Quote:
Did 'Stonewall' Jackson have Asperger's Syndrome?

Michael Fitzgerald


Abstract

To conduct a study of General Thomas Jonathan 'Stonewall' Jackson, one of the greatest military geniuses, to see if he met the criteria for Asperger's Syndrome or Asperger's Disorder. A study of the writings on 'Stonewall' Jackson was conducted. 'Stonewall' Jackson meets the criteria for Asperger's disorder with clear evidence of a qualitative impairment in social interaction and restricted repetitive and stereotyped patterns of behaviour, interests and activities. While individuals with Asperger's disorder suffer major problems in social relationships, nevertheless because of their ability to focus on a single topic they can be capable of great creativity, in this case, in the field of battle and in military affairs.


Picture from the Virginia Military Institute Archives


Did 'Stonewall' Jackson have Asperger's Syndrome or Disorder?

In 1944, the Austrian Hans Asperger described a number of children mainly boys who were socially odd, egocentric and who had circumscribed interests in specific topics Asperger (1944). He called this autistic psychopathy. Later Wing (1981) refined the syndrome and called it Asperger's syndrome. Later Szatmari et al. (1989) outlined specific criteria for the diagnosis of Asperger's syndrome. The American Psychiatric Association (APA, 1994) also set out criteria for Asperger's disorder. Both (Szatmari et al., 1989; APA, 1994) these criteria will be used in attempting to establish whether 'Stonewall' Jackson, possibly the greatest military leader in the American Civil War, had Asperger's syndrome or disorder.

In defining Asperger's syndrome Szatmari et al. (1989) in their first two criteria for Asperger's syndrome, emphasised solitary activities and social relationship problems. It is clear that 'Stonewall' Jackson met these criteria and the evidence will now be presented. During the American Civil War his nephew Henry Kyd Douglas (1947) was with him during the campaign and he described how "the General always kept himself always very much apart . . . and he did not encourage social calls". It was not thought by those who knew him best that he was a good judge of character (Douglas, 1947). Douglas (1947) described him as "hard as nails in the performance of a duty. I never knew him to temper justice with mercy; his very words very merciless. I can recall no case when he remitted or modified a punishment that he believed to be just and according to the law . . . He was governed by his judgment alone, by his strict construction of his sense of duty, by the demands of the public service. There was no place for sentiment or pity. In the execution of the law he was inexorable, justice and mercy seemed out of place". Douglas (1947) describes how at Law School he was regarded as "such an oddity" and a classmate of his said that "old Jack is a character, genius, or just a little crazy" and that he "lives quietly and don't meddle". Douglas (1947) points out that on one occasion a soldier wanted to visit his wife before she died and he said to the man "man, man, do you love your wife more than your country?" and turned away. The man never forgave him.

His problem in social relationships was also seen when he was posted in Florida and he made allegations of immoral behaviour against his commanding officer Major French. Henry (1979) stated that here Jackson showed his "implacable and vindictive characteristics and indeed his attack of French was pitiless, narrow minded and legalistic".

As a teacher at the Virginia Military Institute in Lexington he was "an appallingly bad teacher and extremely unpopular with his students. The cadets considered him a strange character, grim, aloof, unable to communicate with them in or outside the classroom, who subjected them to a petty and relentless discipline" according to Henry (1979). Jackson was known there as "old Hickory" and indeed according to Henry (1979) the authorities made an unsuccessful attempt to remove him from his job. Locally the people of Lexington "considered him to be one of their local eccentrics, but despite his shyness and odd ways" he was respected by members of his Church (Henry, 1979). People considered his appearance odd "and this, combined with his reserve and awkwardness in company, made him the object of many jokes and derisive comments" and he was regarded as having a "shy, introverted and secretive personality" (Henry, 1979).

He therefore meets all the criteria for Asperger's syndrome as set out by Szatmari et al. (1989) in social relationships with: (a) having no close friends, (b) avoiding others, (c) having no interest in making friends, (d) being a loner, (e) having a clumsy social approach, (f) have a one-sided response to peers and having difficulty sensing feelings of others as well as being detached from feelings of others, (g) he was "reticent and self-reliant" (Henry, 1979).

He also meets the criterion set out by Szatmari et al. (1989) for impaired non-verbal communication. He showed limited facial expression and indeed it was said by Douglas (1947) that he "rarely if ever laughed" and had a "reserve and awkwardness in company".

The last criterion Szatmari et al. (1989) was odd speech and he certainly talked very little. Indeed in battles according to Douglas (1947) he sometimes didn't inform people about his future military plans. We don't have information on whether he had idiosyncratic use of words or repetitive patterns of speech.

Asperger's Disorder (APA, 1994)

He certainly meets the first criterion of a qualitative impairment in social interaction (APA, 1994). He had a failure to develop peer relationships and there was a lack of spontaneous seeking to share enjoyment and interests with other people (Douglas, 1947; Henry, 1979). There was a lack of social and emotional reciprocity. Henry (1979) described him as "a withdrawn, morose, isolated personality of eccentric habits and with a hypochondrical preoccupation which bordered on the bizarre". He also said that he was "grim and humourless" (Henry, 1979). At school he was described as being "shy and unsociable, retaining much of the awkwardness of his previous personality" (Henry, 1979). During the American Civil War there were much rumours that he was "mad" and some of his fellow officers resented his aloof, high handed way of conducting his campaigns (Henry, 1979). It was noted by Douglas (1947) that when General Winder came to work with Jackson he had "a will as inflexible as that of Jackson himself and at first their relations were not very cordial and each certainly underrated the other; in many things, they were too much alike to fit exactly". Despite being a loner, being aloof and distant Douglas (1947) stated that "never in the history of warfare has an army shown more devotion to duty and the wishes of one man" as his army showed during the second battle of the Manassas.

The second criterion for Asperger's disorder (APA, 1994) are restricted repetitive and stereotyped patterns of behaviour, interests and activities. He was preoccupied with religion and with war. Henry (1979) points out that he was "an avoid reader of military history and studied intensively the campaigns of Napoleon". He received the nickname "Stonewall" during the 1st battle of the Manassas when his "Virginia brigade stood up to the enemy in a very rigid fashion and Lieutenant H. Lee cried out "look! There is Jackson's brigade standing behind you like a stone wall" (Douglas, 1947).

He and his army was "well-disciplined" (Douglas, 1947). Nevertheless Jackson was described as the "worst-dressed, worst-mounted, most faded and dingy-looking general" there was ever seen (Douglas, 1947). "In all his movements in riding to a horse to handling a pen, the most awkward man in the army" (Douglas, 1947). He walked and rode in a most "ungainly" manner (Douglas, 1947). While he was "aloof and secretive he drove his soldiers mercilessly; and his discipline was almost inhumane but the troops marched and fought and died for him with remarkable devotion" (Douglas, 1947). He studied war and military matters all his life and was probably one of the greatest generals that has ever commanded an American army. He was described as being "a bold leader, probably the boldest the war (American Civil War) produced" (Douglas, 1947). Indeed it was this boldness and leading out his army from the front which was entirely unnecessary which led him to be shot at the battle of Chancellorsville an event that may very well have lost the war for the southern states (Alexander, 1996). He was entirely indifferent to bullets flying around him. He was a brilliant military strategist but then he thought of very little else throughout his life except perhaps of God" and had a great ability to "mystify, mislead, and surprise the enemy (Alexander, 1996). He read no newspapers and allowed no newspaper correspondents to visit his camp.


Conclusion:

There is no doubt that 'Stonewall' Jackson met the criteria for Asperger's disorder which gives the individual enormous handicaps in terms of social relating and empathising with other individuals but can be enormously beneficial for a leader as is shown by Jackson in his leadership of his army. He met all Szatmari's et al. (1989) except missing one additional item under the heading of odd speech for which historical data is not available. Because he was a Professor in the Military Academy and studied battles and war throughout his life he was better prepared for the American Civil War than any other military general. This extreme focus on a single topic can have enormous benefits and it is probably impossible for anyone to produce work of true genius without this exclusive focus.



For correspondence:

Professor M. Fitzgerald, Henry Marsh Professor of Child Psychiatry, Trinity College Dublin, Child & Family Centre, Ballyfermot Road, Ballyfermot, Dublin 10, Ireland.

Telephone Number: (+ 353 1) 626 5676.

Fax Number: (+ 353 1) 454 4418.


References

(1) Alexander B. (1996). Lost Victories: The Military Genius of Stonewall Jackson. New Jersey: Blue and Grey Press.

(2) American Psychiatric Association Diagnostic Criteria from DSM-IV. (1994). Washington: American Psychiatric Association.

(3) Asperger H. (1944). Die "autistischen Psychopathen im" Kindesalter. Archives fur Psychiatrie und Nervenkrankheiten, 117, 76 - 136.

(4) Henry W. D. (1979). Stonewall Jackson - The Soldier Eccentric. Practitioner, 223, 580 - 587.

(5) Kyd-Douglas H. (1947). I rode with 'Stonewall'. London: Putnam.

(6) Szatmari P., Brenner R., Nagy J. (1989). Asperger's Syndrome: A Review of Clinical Features. Canadian Journal of Psychiatry, 34, 544 - 560.

(7) Wing L. (1981). Asperger's Syndrome: A Clinical Account. Psychological Medicine, 11, 115 - 129.



sinsboldly
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25 Apr 2007, 1:29 am

Come live where I do. No one has the slightest idear or interest in Asperger's Syndrome.
My supervisor knows, but all she knows is what I have told her and we just discussed the other day she has no idea how any of 'all that' impacts my job performance. She is just grateful that I police myself and go to the 'sick room' when I feel a meltdown coming on. Of course, she just knows I go off for a twenty minute break every now and then, and I just tell her I was 'taking care of business.' and that is IT.

But other than that, I didn't know for 56 years that I had AS. I wasn't in denial, it just wasn't known and when it was known, all anyone cared about was it in children. No one but adults with AS really care about adults with AS, anyway. I just weep at all the suicides and deaths that have happened because no one knew what was going on and there might be hope for adults like us.

anyway, you don't want to hear all of that.

but the point is, AS is not as pervasive as you may think. You might just be standing real close to it.

Merle



dontwanttoknow
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25 Apr 2007, 1:29 am

Grimbling wrote:
I'm sorry, Dontwanttoknow, my attention span's not good today and I think I've missed the point - you say you're concerned that you're having trouble finding a good job because of your Aspergers, but then you said you can't get diagnosed?

It sounds like, for your peace of mind if nothing else, it would be best if you did see a doctor, and get a diagnosis. If you don't have Asperger's, there must be some reason you feel the way you do.


I've been to 8 or 9 doctors about this. 4 were supposedly experts on AS/Autism: a neurologist, a neuropsychologist, a psychiatrist and a psychologist. They all said I don't have AS. But I don't believe them because I think because I'm a woman and don't have a big "special interest" that I must be presenting differently then male Aspies do so they're not catching it somehow. They do say I have social anxiety and avoidant personality disorder.

If I'd only never heard about AS. I was getting help for my social anxiety, but it was slow going and my therapist seemed to think it was taking me longer than it should have. Though he was the first one to say I didn't have AS when I brought it up. (He wasn't one of the experts, however.) If I'd even read about AS in a positive context, but all I could find, it seemed like, was negative (this was in Sept. of 2001). And I always knew I must have something negative and incurable "wrong" with me. So it seemed like it must be that. And even one Aspie I talked to on the phone soon after said Aspies were "socially ret*d" and she starting saying "Sing it loud, I'm ret*d and proud" which freaked me out big time. I remember I was talking to her on my cell phone during lunch break from work and she kept going on and on, and I finally had to just hang up abruptly by saying I needed to get back to work that I was late (which I was) and my boss was probably wondering where I was, and then I was afraid to talk to her again.

There were these awful boards then for spouses of Aspies and they were extremely negative and I thought I must have every negative trait they diescribed, even though probably at least some of the traits described weren't even AS traits (I suspect some of them were grabbing at AS as an explanation of why their spouse was a jerk; probably it was something else in many of these cases. But if he (most of the spouses were men, and even though I'm a woman I thought I must be like tnem) didn't have too many friends and couldn't communicate with his wife, he must be AS. It was the worst introduction anyone could have to AS and for some reason, I've never been able to get over it or think completely positively about AS ever since.

I don't know how much I"ve spend going to doctors over this--money I could have saved or used for something else. You'd think t here would be someone in the Seattle area who could diagnose a woman with AS. Now I've also got the diagnosis of OCD because I'm obsessed with possibly having AS, so the last doctor I saw didn't even want to tell me if I had it or not because she'd be feedign my OCD symptoms (that was the neuropsych). She was actually not going to give me any diagnosis at all, just give it to my therapist . So even though she did give me a diagnosis of not having AS but having a verbal processind disorder and social anxiety disorder, avoidant personality disorder and OCD, I don't believe her either.

I'll have to lie to my next doctor about the OCD or they'll never tell me one way or the other either. You're not supposed to reassure someone with OCD that they dont' have whatever it is they're obsessing about (for instance, if someone kept thinking they had cancer when they didn't).



Last edited by dontwanttoknow on 25 Apr 2007, 1:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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25 Apr 2007, 1:38 am

dontwanttoknow wrote:
Grimbling wrote:
I'm sorry, Dontwanttoknow, my attention span's not good today and I think I've missed the point - you say you're concerned that you're having trouble finding a good job because of your Aspergers, but then you said you can't get diagnosed?

It sounds like, for your peace of mind if nothing else, it would be best if you did see a doctor, and get a diagnosis. If you don't have Asperger's, there must be some reason you feel the way you do.


I've been to 8 or 9 doctors about this. 4 were supposedly experts on AS/Autism: a neurologist, a neuropsychologist, a psychiatrist and a psychologist. They all said I don't have AS. But I don't believe them because I think because I'm a woman and don't have a big "special interest" that I must be presenting differently then male Aspies do so they're not catching it somehow. They do say I have social anxiety and avoidant personality disorder.

If I'd only never heard about AS. I was getting help for my social anxiety, but it was slow going and my therapist seemed to think it was taking me longer than it should have. Though he was the first one to say I didn't have AS when I brought it up. (He wasn't one of the experts, however.) If I'd even read about AS in a positive context, but all I could find, it seemed like, was negative (this was in Sept. of 2001). And I always knew I must have something negative and incurable "wrong" with me. So it seemed like it must be that.


I considered myself avoidant personality disorder before I learned of AS. Maybe its what you have?



dontwanttoknow
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25 Apr 2007, 1:44 am

TheMachine1 wrote:
Not sure I follow everything the OP was trying to say. But his first point of us finding aspies everywhere reminded me of this:

http://www.scpnet.com/paper2_2.htm

Quote:
Did 'Stonewall' Jackson have Asperger's Syndrome?

.


Yeah, that's exactly what I mean! Michael Fitzgerald is finding Aspies everywhere among dead political figures, though I think if the person's been dead that long it doesn't matter as much what someone says about them. He has also posthumously "diagnosed" Eamon de Valera (spelling?) an Irish politician or political leader; and also the poet W.B. Yeats, and now he's starting on U.S. leaders??? Who's next??? What, there aren't enough dead Irish political Aspies????



Last edited by dontwanttoknow on 25 Apr 2007, 1:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

dontwanttoknow
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25 Apr 2007, 1:49 am

sinsboldly wrote:
Come live where I do. No one has the slightest idear or interest in Asperger's Syndrome.
My supervisor knows, but all she knows is what I have told her and we just discussed the other day she has no idea how any of 'all that' impacts my job performance. She is just grateful that I police myself and go to the 'sick room' when I feel a meltdown coming on. Of course, she just knows I go off for a twenty minute break every now and then, and I just tell her I was 'taking care of business.' and that is IT.

But other than that, I didn't know for 56 years that I had AS. I wasn't in denial, it just wasn't known and when it was known, all anyone cared about was it in children. No one but adults with AS really care about adults with AS, anyway. I just weep at all the suicides and deaths that have happened because no one knew what was going on and there might be hope for adults like us.

anyway, you don't want to hear all of that.

but the point is, AS is not as pervasive as you may think. You might just be standing real close to it.

Merle


No, people don't know about it much yet, but they will. I haven't even heard anyone I know speak the words "Asperger's Syndrome" aloud unless I mentioned it first. I imagie I'd get this chill like I would if I heard horrible news. Just hearing the words, not because anyone said them about me, because the times I've heard "autism" since I first heard about AS, I've got that same chill. I have problems even hearing the words "autism" and "Aspeger's" on TV or radio unless I know that I'm going to hear them. I dont' listen to a particular baseball team's games online, for instance, because one of the announcer's kids is autistic and whenver someone hits a home run or makes a certain type of play, the team donates to his foundation for autism, and he mentions it and it freaks me out every time.



dontwanttoknow
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25 Apr 2007, 1:54 am

TheMachine1 wrote:
dontwanttoknow wrote:
[quote="Grimbling"

I considered myself avoidant personality disorder before I learned of AS. Maybe its what you have?


I do have that, but feel l ike I must have AS as well. AvPD is something easy for an Aspie to develop, I think, because of social problems and rejections, etc. that seem to be common among Aspies, at least more common than among the general population.

How did you stop thinking it was AvPD and start thinking AS?



25 Apr 2007, 3:00 am

RedMage wrote:
willem wrote:
Everyone's an Aspie. Most people just aren't very good at it.


That's not true. My family aren't Aspies.



I think he meant everyone shows some but we show more so that's why it becomes a condition for us. Look at the sport fans, now they get AS when a game gets cancelled or a game gets moved to another city because they get pissed off about it. If Comedy Central didn't show South park at 10PM one Wednesday, I'm sure they be getting bombed with letters from their angry South Park viewers demanding why they didn't play the show. That kind of thing has happened in the past where a station had decided not to play a show and they got lot of angry emails and phone calls from people.



25 Apr 2007, 3:11 am

dontwantoknow, why can't you just accept the fact you don't have AS. All the doctors you have seen so far say you don't have it so you can't stop worrying about rather you have AS or not. You just probably have the traits of it. Do you meet the AS criteria? Have you talked to any of your doctors by asking them if you don't have AS then why do you act like you do and see what they say.



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25 Apr 2007, 3:23 am

Here in Perth, Australia there are people who don't know what autism is at at all (and hence spell it ortisium. This is true, I saw it myself!) or those who know about it, think that as soon as you are an adult, you are cured. I've drawn that conclusion by the serious lack of services for people here with autism/AS.

I'm skeptical of famous people being diagnosed, especially when they are dead.