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igorama
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13 May 2007, 5:09 pm

I was thinking that autism and AS could really at the root be caused by child abuse, or even distress inflicted on a child (an infant actually) that wouldn't normally be even considered abuse. I've been recently interested in Jungian psychology, and perhaps an early abusive episode, even at the age when you can't possibly remember it, gets so ingrained into the subconscious that normal behavior becomes impossible. Here I don’t really mean normal as typical but rather what ideal would’ve been if it were typical.

From the evolutionary viewpoint there is a value in resilience. If a child (infant) lacks resilience to the point that an abusive episode can severely damage his or her personality, then why would evolution promote such genetic material? So the child becomes autistic as a means of eliminating him or her from the reproductive cycle. So yes, I would argue for genetic predisposition, but the condition is triggered by an outside event.

The neurotypical child has greater resilience and thus is able to function despite the abuse. And that’s what we call typical. Obviously, you have problems in such a world right away. But that’s evolution, survival of the fittest. Not necessarily the nicest.

So, if this is true, the condition could be reversed with proper therapeutic intervention, but the individual will not become neurotypical just because the trauma is resolved. He or she would have to learn neurotypical behavior from scratch, and that’s rather hard for an adult, if not completely impossible if you missed the proper time frame for learning it.

Just my thoughts, nothing scientific here. But then I think our society is so not ready to deal with child abuse that nothing scientific would show up for a long time…



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13 May 2007, 5:13 pm

That makes sense; I had the blood beaten outta me as a infant


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13 May 2007, 5:19 pm

That depends. Do you believe that such abuse can actually change the structure of the brain itself, somehow shrinking the amygdala, hypothalamus, and bridge between cerebral hemispheres, while simultaneously altering the ration of white and gray cells in the cerebellum?

And do you think that later "therapy" can change the ratios back again, and increas the size of the affected structures?

Autism is a neurological disorder, not a psychological one. It's not caused by abuse, or bad parenting, or "refrigerator mothers", or vaccines taken two years into the child's life - it's caused by the luck of the genetic draw.

And Jung was full of it, but that's to be expected when he was taught by a toilet-obsessed misogynist with a cocaine addiction.


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13 May 2007, 6:00 pm

yah. i got smacked around by one of my moms husbands. what a nitemare that was, i dont know if it contributed to my as, although im sure it gave me anxiety


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madscientist
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13 May 2007, 6:05 pm

I'm with Deacon, this doesn't wash for me. Like he said, AS is neurological, not psychological- it's completely illogical to think that an environmental/behavioral factor such as abuse, even during the "formative" years could rewire the neural pathways in such a way. Add to that the fact that by the time abuse typically starts or can be perceived, whether it's physical, verbal, sexual or other, the child is already past the age at which AS symptoms usually manifest.


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13 May 2007, 6:19 pm

Mmmmnnn I am not sure about this one. There is already an evolutionary advantage of have aspies in sociaty. Look in the world around you. Look at the computer you are typing on.



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13 May 2007, 6:57 pm

Granted, while some aspies/auties are abused, how do you explain the majority who were not? I'm pretty sure this theory can be thrown out entirely, especially since, as posted above, this is a neurological problem and not a "complex" that be developed. I was tested for abuse regularly (requirement at least in the military) as a baby and each time I showed a stronger-than-most bond with my mother. Abuse would surface more in general distrust and inease towards that person (perhaps without even knowing why if it was early enough), rather than resulting in a complete rewiring of the brain.



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13 May 2007, 7:14 pm

You'd have to have evidence that most autistics were abused before their traits showed. Impossible. And like in the other thread that is discussing abuse, many remember that they were abused because they were autistic.
Blows a hole in your accusations.
People love to blame the parents for everything. I remember when my son wasn't talking and I was accused of coddling him. So, it's damned if you, damned if you don't.



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13 May 2007, 7:53 pm

it is genetic. I don't discount environmental factors entirely. If a kid is abused that could make the kid crazy and make their spectrum symptoms seem worse because they have an extra layer of craziness on top of the autism/aspergers. But as far as I know this is genetic.



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13 May 2007, 7:59 pm

They used to think that autism was caused by something the parents did, which was completely unfair to the parents. As other people have mentioned, the problem is neurological. I'm sorry for those people who were abused, I don't think they can blame their autism on the abuse.



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13 May 2007, 8:05 pm

igorama wrote:
I was thinking that autism and AS could really at the root be caused by child abuse, or even distress inflicted on a child (an infant actually) that wouldn't normally be even considered abuse. I've been recently interested in Jungian psychology, and perhaps an early abusive episode, even at the age when you can't possibly remember it, gets so ingrained into the subconscious that normal behavior becomes impossible. Here I don’t really mean normal as typical but rather what ideal would’ve been if it were typical.

From the evolutionary viewpoint there is a value in resilience. If a child (infant) lacks resilience to the point that an abusive episode can severely damage his or her personality, then why would evolution promote such genetic material? So the child becomes autistic as a means of eliminating him or her from the reproductive cycle. So yes, I would argue for genetic predisposition, but the condition is triggered by an outside event.

The neurotypical child has greater resilience and thus is able to function despite the abuse. And that’s what we call typical. Obviously, you have problems in such a world right away. But that’s evolution, survival of the fittest. Not necessarily the nicest.

So, if this is true, the condition could be reversed with proper therapeutic intervention, but the individual will not become neurotypical just because the trauma is resolved. He or she would have to learn neurotypical behavior from scratch, and that’s rather hard for an adult, if not completely impossible if you missed the proper time frame for learning it.

Just my thoughts, nothing scientific here. But then I think our society is so not ready to deal with child abuse that nothing scientific would show up for a long time…


I would say that your theory is dubious about the cause of AS, but I would consider such abuse as exacerbating AS and autism, as I was never abused as a young child.


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13 May 2007, 8:21 pm

I have only read 2 of your posts but you dont seem to like people with AS.First you think we are "egotostic" and now we are poor at resilience and will there by be ruled out as evolutionary viable?How do you explain the increase of autism. are more parents becoming more abusive?

Aspies do grow up(check out the Dino Cafe) and many "breed",inspite of many teenagers disbelief that they will ever find a mate.Given some of the difficulties aspies face(the result of the ignorence and bias of an NT dominated society),many do survive and have managed to adapt.If evoloution decides to eliminate the "aspie gene" it will be due to the fear and ignorence of people who wish to "cure autism".....the mind set of...."if you dont understand it and it is different then you it should be destroyed" is hardly a step in the right direction of human evolution.


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13 May 2007, 8:23 pm

Generally Autism causes abuse. Not the other way around.

I myself had an extremely positive childhood. While I was never spoiled, I was definitely not abused in the least.

Plus your evolutionary theory makes even less sense then the abuse theory. Aspies are not sterile, and we can attribute many major scientific advances to people who at least had a few autistic qualities even if they couldn't be diagnosed. Albert Enstien is thought to have been an Aspie.



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13 May 2007, 8:33 pm

DeaconBlues wrote:
That depends. Do you believe that such abuse can actually change the structure of the brain itself, somehow shrinking the amygdala, hypothalamus, and bridge between cerebral hemispheres, while simultaneously altering the ration of white and gray cells in the cerebellum?

And do you think that later "therapy" can change the ratios back again, and increas the size of the affected structures?

Autism is a neurological disorder, not a psychological one. It's not caused by abuse, or bad parenting, or "refrigerator mothers", or vaccines taken two years into the child's life - it's caused by the luck of the genetic draw.

And Jung was full of it, but that's to be expected when he was taught by a toilet-obsessed misogynist with a cocaine addiction.


Agreed, I think a lot of AS/HFA have an unfortunate childhood and henceforth abused and harassed because of how they are not the other way around.



igorama
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13 May 2007, 9:08 pm

I think Western medicine doesn't understand the mind-body connection which cannot be explained by the current state of science and our society tends to dismiss anything that it cannot explain. I wouldn't be surprised if abuse could cause neurological changes. Adults sexually abused as children, for instance, have frequent throat and vaginal infections, even though abuse stopped long ago.

It would also be wrong to blame all abuse on the parents. There are plenty of other people who can abuse a child, moreover, some things done to a child that are not considered abuse could still be traumatizing. Some medical procedures can be pretty horrible experiences even if they're necessary and there is no other way to do them.



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13 May 2007, 9:35 pm

igorama wrote:
I think Western medicine doesn't understand the mind-body connection which cannot be explained by the current state of science and our society tends to dismiss anything that it cannot explain. I wouldn't be surprised if abuse could cause neurological changes. Adults sexually abused as children, for instance, have frequent throat and vaginal infections, even though abuse stopped long ago.

It would also be wrong to blame all abuse on the parents. There are plenty of other people who can abuse a child, moreover, some things done to a child that are not considered abuse could still be traumatizing. Some medical procedures can be pretty horrible experiences even if they're necessary and there is no other way to do them.


I for one am quite aware of the mind-body connection, its screaming obvious. There are a lot of psychological disorders that effect the body as much as the mind however bullying and abuse effects the mind more than the body of course, that makes sense. Does it effect the neurological infrastructure of the mind?

I like far fetched theories and I like bringing logical conclusion and connection to light with them. However given the logicality of this situation, the knowledge and the current patterns of our understanding its by far unlikely.

Also.. while you've brought out a good point on abuse, what the hell does it have to do with the 'development' of AS with the theory that one is BORN either NT or Autistic considering the significant amount of research pointing to the idea that yes, this is a neurological issue. You can't "catch" it or "develop" it like you can psychological illness.